Wild Router Statements, Shoot Me Down -

In article <050720031726338510%nospam@iam.invalid>,
Mark Conrad <nospam.RemoveThis@iam.invalid> wrote:

> Wild Statements About Netopia R-Series Routers -
>
> The default router address of 192.168.1.1 which is assigned to all
> Netopia R-Series routers is in the "private" range of IP addresses.
>
> That means a computer on the Internet can't make 'initial' contact to
> the router itself. If it can't connect to the router, then it has no
> chance of connecting to the local computer 'behind' the router.
>

Every router has (at least) two IP address -- one seen by the outside
world, and one for the local net. Ths 192.x.x.x address is for the
local lan. You have to tell it what the outside (world-visible) address
is. Often that is set by DHCP from your broadband ISP.

In article <macg3-002D62.18435705072003 RemoveThis @news.bellatlantic.net>, Doug
Brown <macg3 RemoveThis @pleasenospam.mac.com.invalid> wrote:

> > Once connection is established, then, and only then, two-way traffic
> > can be transmitted between the two computers.
>
> True, except the router also has an outside IP address (the one assigned
> by your ISP). If someone on the Internet tries to connect to the
> router's IP address that was assigned to it by your ISP (not the
> 192.168.1.1 address), and you've configured your router to forward
> incoming traffic on that port to one of the private machines, then an
> outside computer can make the initial connection.

Thanks for replying, I am trying to learn how to configure routers.

It isn't easy, at least for me.

I have to telnet to my Netopia R2020 router, and it seems all telnet
applications for the Mac are a little different from each other. Right
now I am using MacTelnet version 3.0a20c

Router is using slow telephone dialup only, no broadband of any sort,
OS-8.6, Mac 'Lombard' powerbook, running Timbuktu remote-control
software on _all_ the computers involved.

No reasonable support from router vendor (Netopia) - - - unless one is
already a router whiz.

They want $119 just to do a telephone talk-through in which they
"guarantee" that they will get one-computer-only to have 'basic'
connectivity to the Internet via a telephone dialup connection. No
advanced features configuration, just basic simple connectivity to the
Internet.

My immediate problem is that once I get to the router configuration
screens via telnet, I can only navigate around the screens for 60
seconds, then the screens "lock up" and no longer respond to the
ordinary telnet navigation keyboard commands like up-arrow,
down-arrow, return, etc.

Tried two different telnet apps, same result. Tried reloading OS,
throwing away pref' files, same result. Obviously, there is some
simple setting somewhere that will let me get away from the one-minute
limit, but I don't know where it is.

Besides the lockup, a different version of telnet showed an error
message:

"Mac TCP Release Failed" (whatever that means)

Come Monday, I will wait out the one-hour support line at Netopia and
ask them if they have any ideas as to what is causing the 1-min lockup.

Mark-

In article <fishfry-5E7BF5.20501005072003 DeleteThis @netnews.attbi.com>, fishfry
<fishfry DeleteThis @your-mailbox.com> wrote:

> Every router has (at least) two IP address -- one seen by the outside
> world, and one for the local net. Ths 192.x.x.x address is for the
> local lan. You have to tell it what the outside (world-visible) address
> is. Often that is set by DHCP from your broadband ISP.

Thanks for the reply, at least now I know the rough overview of _how_
the "outside-world" IP address is obtained by the router, thanks.

I have DHCP set in my TCP/IP control panel, but I think I also tried
the "Ethernet" setting of the TCP/IP control panel - - - I was confused
which setting to use, because the router 'connects' to the local
computer via an Ethernet cable.

If you want to read the harrowing details of my setup here, check out
my recent post to Doug Brown, I cried on his shoulder a lot.<g>

Mark-

In article <060720031241305643%nospam@iam.invalid>,
Mark Conrad <nospam DeleteThis @iam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <macg3-002D62.18435705072003 DeleteThis @news.bellatlantic.net>, Doug
> Brown <macg3 DeleteThis @pleasenospam.mac.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> > > Once connection is established, then, and only then, two-way traffic
> > > can be transmitted between the two computers.
> >
> > True, except the router also has an outside IP address (the one assigned
> > by your ISP). If someone on the Internet tries to connect to the
> > router's IP address that was assigned to it by your ISP (not the
> > 192.168.1.1 address), and you've configured your router to forward
> > incoming traffic on that port to one of the private machines, then an
> > outside computer can make the initial connection.
>
> Thanks for replying, I am trying to learn how to configure routers.
>
> It isn't easy, at least for me.
>
> I have to telnet to my Netopia R2020 router, and it seems all telnet
> applications for the Mac are a little different from each other. Right
> now I am using MacTelnet version 3.0a20c
>

Are you using OS X? Just fire up the Terminal application and say

% telnet xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx

where xxx etc is the (local) IP address of your router.

In article <fishfry-32D56F.13571606072003.DeleteThis@netnews.attbi.com>, fishfry
<fishfry.DeleteThis@your-mailbox.com> wrote:

> Are you using OS X? Just fire up the Terminal application and say
>
> % telnet xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
>
> where xxx etc is the (local) IP address of your router.

No, I am using OS 8.6 on the only powerbook (Lombard) that I presently
have on the "local" side of the Netopia R2020 router.

If I ever get the router working (doubtful) - then I will add my
'Pismo' powerbook to the local side of the router.

The Pismo runs OS 10.2.6 right now.

I have no problem telneting to the router from my older Lombard
powerbook and getting all the configuration screens etc.

The main problem is that those configuration screens "lock-up" after
60-seconds, and no longer respond to keystroke navigation like
"up-arrow", "down-arrow", and "return" keys which are absolutely
essential to navigate around the screens and make the various
configuration settings.

I have tried everything, trashing telnet pref' files, trying a
different telnet application, even erasing the disk and re-installing
OS 8.6, but nothing deters the 60-second lockup problem.

Hopefully, come Monday, the Netopia support line might be able to
figure out why the lockup occurs.

Mark-

In article <fishfry-5E7BF5.20501005072003 RemoveThis @netnews.attbi.com>,
fishfry <fishfry RemoveThis @your-mailbox.com> wrote:
> Every router has (at least) two IP address -- one seen by the outside
> world, and one for the local net. Ths 192.x.x.x address is for the
> local lan. You have to tell it what the outside (world-visible) address
> is. Often that is set by DHCP from your broadband ISP.

I think the point the OP was trying to make is,
you can't set the outside, or "world" IP nr from the outside if the
vendor has set the default to 192.x.x.x

IOW you must make contact with the router from the inside (not a bad
thing security-wise) and configure it with a known good IPnr, or to get
it DHCP from a known good ISP. It's this part that often crumbles to
dust between the hands of trans-Pacific tech manual translators and
network neophytes...

In article <user-07F0AA.11172507072003.DeleteThis@scream.auckland.ac.nz>, Peter
KERR <user.DeleteThis@host.domain> wrote:

> > Every router has (at least) two IP address -- one seen by the outside
> > world, and one for the local net. Ths 192.x.x.x address is for the
> > local lan. You have to tell it what the outside (world-visible) address
> > is. Often that is set by DHCP from your broadband ISP.
>
> I think the point the OP was trying to make is,
> you can't set the outside, or "world" IP nr from the outside if the
> vendor has set the default to 192.x.x.x

Absolutely correct, that is what I meant.

I can't see any use for that default address of 192.168.1.1 that the
manufacturer assigns to the router itself.

Unfortunately, all his instructions make heavy use of that default
address, which really confuses me.

If he intends that I replace the default "router address" with some
other address, he should say so in the instructions, IMHO.

Also, nothing is mentioned in any of the instructions about where to
find a replacement address for the router's default address.

Real barrel of snakes, as far as a first-time router user is concerned.

Main problem remains how to get the configuration screens to stay
active after 60 seconds, the screens "lock-up" and won't respond to
keystroke navigation after exactly 60 seconds.
(up-arrow, down-arrow, 'return' keys, etc.)

Tried all the obvious things, throwing away pref' files, trying
different telnet applications, even erasing disk and reloading OS-8.6

Come Monday I will wait out the vendor's one-hour support line and ask
the tech's there if they have any idea what is causing the
configuration screens to lock-up after 60 seconds.

Mark-

In article <060720032104374835%nospam@iam.invalid>,
Mark Conrad <nospam RemoveThis @iam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <user-07F0AA.11172507072003 RemoveThis @scream.auckland.ac.nz>, Peter
> KERR <user RemoveThis @host.domain> wrote:
>
> > > Every router has (at least) two IP address -- one seen by the outside
> > > world, and one for the local net. Ths 192.x.x.x address is for the
> > > local lan. You have to tell it what the outside (world-visible) address
> > > is. Often that is set by DHCP from your broadband ISP.
> >
> > I think the point the OP was trying to make is,
> > you can't set the outside, or "world" IP nr from the outside if the
> > vendor has set the default to 192.x.x.x
>
> Absolutely correct, that is what I meant.
>
> I can't see any use for that default address of 192.168.1.1 that the
> manufacturer assigns to the router itself.

That is how you contact the router from within the local netword to
configure it to suit your purposes (e.g. specify the ISP's parameters,
local DHCP IP address range, ports to be forwarded, etc.)
>
> Unfortunately, all his instructions make heavy use of that default
> address, which really confuses me.

Of course it does; it's the only to pass configuration information to
the router or to receive status information from it.
>
> If he intends that I replace the default "router address" with some
> other address, he should say so in the instructions, IMHO.

He doesn't, so he didn't.
>
> Also, nothing is mentioned in any of the instructions about where to
> find a replacement address for the router's default address.
>
> Real barrel of snakes, as far as a first-time router user is concerned.
>
> Main problem remains how to get the configuration screens to stay
> active after 60 seconds, the screens "lock-up" and won't respond to
> keystroke navigation after exactly 60 seconds.
> (up-arrow, down-arrow, 'return' keys, etc.)

That's the only real problem. It sounds like the router is expecting
some sort of user authentication (e.g. userID a/o password). Read the
documentation that came with the router. As you read it, pretend that
you don't know what to do and that the manual's author does.
>
> Tried all the obvious things, throwing away pref' files, trying
> different telnet applications, even erasing disk and reloading OS-8.6
>
> Come Monday I will wait out the vendor's one-hour support line and ask
> the tech's there if they have any idea what is causing the
> configuration screens to lock-up after 60 seconds.
>
> Mark-

--
Tom Stiller

PGP fingerprint = 5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3
7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF

In article <060720032104153514%nospam@iam.invalid>,
Mark Conrad <nospam DeleteThis @iam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <fishfry-32D56F.13571606072003 DeleteThis @netnews.attbi.com>, fishfry
> <fishfry DeleteThis @your-mailbox.com> wrote:
>
> > Are you using OS X? Just fire up the Terminal application and say
> >
> > % telnet xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
> >
> > where xxx etc is the (local) IP address of your router.
>
> No, I am using OS 8.6 on the only powerbook (Lombard) that I presently
> have on the "local" side of the Netopia R2020 router.
>
> If I ever get the router working (doubtful) - then I will add my
> 'Pismo' powerbook to the local side of the router.
>
> The Pismo runs OS 10.2.6 right now.
>
> I have no problem telneting to the router from my older Lombard
> powerbook and getting all the configuration screens etc.
>
> The main problem is that those configuration screens "lock-up" after
> 60-seconds, and no longer respond to keystroke navigation like
> "up-arrow", "down-arrow", and "return" keys which are absolutely
> essential to navigate around the screens and make the various
> configuration settings.

I've spent a fair amount of time telnetting to an R-series Netopia, with
never a hint of screen lockup after 60 seconds. Although recently
that's been from Mac OS X (G4 dual 533), it was from 8.? or 9.? (7300)
before that, probably with BetterTelnet.

>
> I have tried everything, trashing telnet pref' files, trying a
> different telnet application, even erasing the disk and re-installing
> OS 8.6, but nothing deters the 60-second lockup problem.
>
> Hopefully, come Monday, the Netopia support line might be able to
> figure out why the lockup occurs.

Oddly enough, my boss is busily configuring one of the R2020 machines as
I type this (and calling me with questions). But it's likely that he's
using a laptop running Linux.

--John

In article
<tomstiller-901DA8.07505407072003 RemoveThis @news.comcast.giganews.com>, Tom
Stiller <tomstiller RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:

> > Main problem remains how to get the configuration screens to stay
> > active after 60 seconds, the screens "lock-up" and won't respond to
> > keystroke navigation after exactly 60 seconds.
> > (up-arrow, down-arrow, 'return' keys, etc.)
>
> That's the only real problem. It sounds like the router is expecting
> some sort of user authentication (e.g. userID a/o password). Read the
> documentation that came with the router. As you read it, pretend that
> you don't know what to do and that the manual's author does.

Hi Tom, thanks for the reply. I just got off the phone with Netopia's
router support section (again) and they don't know what is going on
with this R2020 router either.

> Read the documentation that came with the router.

No recource there, Netopia no longer ships a CD with their R2020
router, their tech' support section sez to download all the doc's from
their Internet website, which I did already, along with every available
"technote" that Netopia has at their website.

According to the docs, and according to the lack-of-prompts on the
router configuration screens, no default password is set.

There is no "user manual" per se, just those random collection of
Internet docs and technotes at their website.

When I was on the phone to Netopia today, I made the mistake of telling
them than one of the versions of telnet that I tried (NCSA or NSCA
version 2.6) - produced an error message:

"Mac TCP Release Failed"

They pounced on that like a bird on a June bug, and said the problem
must be with the Mac itself, not their router.<g>

All their docs mention that telnet itself will work with OSs as old as
OS7 - - - I originally bought this router May of 2002.

Right now, I am using the latest version of "MacTelnet", the 60-second
lockup problem still persists, but with no error message on this
particular brand of telnet.

If one goes to the Netopia website, the same router is sold today.

I tried reloading OS 8.6 into a different partition, but the 60-second
lockup problem follows me there.

My last remaining recourse is to try to telnet from OS X.

If that does not work, I will junk this $650 router and look around for
a different brand of router, hopefully one that has good Mac tech'
support if I get into trouble configuring it on the 'advanced' features
of the router.

I really need a router aimed at slow telephone dialup connections,
which the R2020 was designed for. (supposedly) - - - with all the
_other_ bells and whistles because I will mainly be using the router
with Timbuktu-equipped computers, which need all the help they can get
from the router, due to security considerations.

One thing for certain, I will make sure my next router can be
configured with a browser, instead of telnet.



> > I can't see any use for that default address of 192.168.1.1 that the
> > manufacturer assigns to the router itself.
>
> That is how you contact the router from within the local netword to
> configure it to suit your purposes (e.g. specify the ISP's parameters,
> local DHCP IP address range, ports to be forwarded, etc.)

- - - and - - -

> > Unfortunately, all his instructions make heavy use of that default
> > address, which really confuses me.
>
> Of course it does; it's the only to pass configuration information to
> the router or to receive status information from it.


That information really helps me Tom, thanks. Insights like that are
completely missing from the online documentation.

Back to the battle -

Mark-

In article <070720030934106230%nospam@iam.invalid>,
Mark Conrad <nospam.TakeThisOut@iam.invalid> wrote:

> If that does not work, I will junk this $650 router and look around for
> a different brand of router, hopefully one that has good Mac tech'
> support if I get into trouble configuring it on the 'advanced' features
> of the router.

The D-Link DI-604 costs thirty or forty bucks, works like a charm with
the Mac.

In article <050720031726338510%nospam@iam.invalid>,
Mark Conrad <nospam.DeleteThis@iam.invalid> wrote:

> Wild Statements About Netopia R-Series Routers -
>
> The default router address of 192.168.1.1 which is assigned to all
> Netopia R-Series routers is in the "private" range of IP addresses.
>
> That means a computer on the Internet can't make 'initial' contact to
> the router itself. If it can't connect to the router, then it has no
> chance of connecting to the local computer 'behind' the router.
>
> if the "Outside-Internet-Computer" tries to establish the _initial_
> _contact_ between itself and the router at the router's address of
> 192.168.1.1 then it won't work.
>
> Just for beginners, the outside computer is blind to any address in the
> private address ranges, and our handy-dandy router has a private
> address of 192.168.1.1
>
> So what actually happens is that the local computer, the one 'behind'
> the router, _has_ to make the _initial_ connection between the two
> computers.
>
> That can be done.
>
> Once connection is established, then, and only then, two-way traffic
> can be transmitted between the two computers.
>
> Naturally, I have book references for all the above wild statements.
>
> Shoot me down <g>
>
> Mark-

You also have an external IP address assigned by your ISP. Your router
has two different interfaces & two different IP addresses. The
192.168.x.x address (for D-Link it's 192.168.0.1) is seen on the LAN
side, while a real routable IP address is seen on the WAN side, so your
router can be accessed from the outside by that address.

--
Mike Cohen - mike3k <at> onepost <dot> net
Personal: http://www.mc-development.com/
Mac News: http://www.macmegasite.com/

In article
<tomstiller-901DA8.07505407072003 DeleteThis @news.comcast.giganews.com>, Tom
Stiller <tomstiller DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote: Lotsa good tips -


Just a followup post, I tried a different computer, a different OS
(OS-X) - and did my telnet from Terminal.

Same thing happened, configuration screens were active for 59-seconds,
could navigate all over the place.

At promptly 60 seconds, screens froze up and would no longer respond to
keyboard, just like when I was using OS 8.6 on a different computer.

I had to force-quit Terminal.

That test was my last resort, Netopia tech' support won't help me,
mainly because of my charming personality.

Looks like I will have to junk the $650 Netopia router, abd look around
for a different brand that supports slow dialup connection.

Mark-