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Linux vs. windows for voting systems?

 
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Mark Shroyer

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Since: Jul 01, 2007
Posts: 8



(Msg. 16) Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Linux vs. windows for voting systems? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: comp>os>linux>advocacy, others (more info?)

On 2007-07-16, AZ Nomad <aznomad.2 RemoveThis @PremoveOBthisOX.COM> wrote:
>>For the voter's purposes, anything on the order of complexity of a
>>computer -- even a computer whose software's source code we
>>ostensibly have in hand -- is effectively a black box. (Even if the
>
> We're not talking about a word processing program, or a system for tracking
> a thousand incoming aircraft.
>
> Counting votes is a rock stupid appliaction. There is no reason it should
> require more than a few thousand lines of code.

And an operating system, and the hardware to run it on... that's a
hell of a lot more complex than a punch card system.

The point is that anything involving a printed circuit board has an
inherent level of complexity making it no longer transparent to the
end user. This is why, at the very minimum, a paper trail is a
necessity.

--
Mark Shroyer
http://markshroyer.com/
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Aaron Gray

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Since: Jul 16, 2007
Posts: 16



(Msg. 17) Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Linux vs. windows for voting systems? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"resonator80" <w.edelstein.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1184512183.628120.165180@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> Computerized voting systems (aka DREs or Direct Recording Electronic)
> must be based on an operating system, for example, Windows or Linux.
>
> Linux has the advantage of being open so that all the source code can
> be open. Windows source code will not be opened to anyone.
>
> Some people have argued that the basic Windows operating system can
> remain secret as long as the voting application program (i.e. C,
> Python, etc) is open.
>
> Here are some questions about such an arrangement.
>
> 1. Could someone tamper with the Windows OS or put in some additional
> code that would not be found in an inspection of the application
> program that could alter the results?
>
> 2. Could viruses and other malware affect the OS and, ultimately, an
> election without its effects being detected by examining the
> application program?
>
> Any other comments are welcom.

Only Linux is secure enough and able to be validated as secure. Windows is
not capable of being validated as being secure.

Aaron
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Christopher Hunter

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Since: Jul 15, 2007
Posts: 22



(Msg. 18) Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Linux vs. windows for voting systems? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Mark Shroyer wrote:

> Voting power based on wealth, property, and education: that's not
> meritocracy, that's plutocracy. At the risk of taking this thread
> completely off-topic, I have to ask -- do you truly believe this
> would lead to a better society? When has an official policy of
> making the powerful more influential, and sweeping the destitute
> even further under the rug, ever worked out for the betterment of
> all?

At risk of going way OT - it's /not/ quite plutocracy - it's the fullest
form of meritocracy (the difference is /very/ subtle, I grant you). All
successful societies have always "swept the destitute under the rug", and
will continue to do so. There are several types of "destitution",
including ignorance, stupidity, and indolence - all should be penalised!

> Allowing the best to rise to the top isn't a function of government,
> it's a function of the economy. All the government has to do is
> provide a level playing field -- for the rich and poor, educated and
> uneducated alike.

Any government that tries to "provide a level playing field" is guaranteed
to fail. A quick look at the history of communism will show you that!

C.
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The Ghost In The Machine

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Since: Apr 10, 2007
Posts: 676



(Msg. 19) Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:10 am
Post subject: Re: Linux vs. windows for voting systems? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In comp.os.linux.advocacy, resonator80
<w.edelstein RemoveThis @gmail.com>
wrote
on Sun, 15 Jul 2007 15:09:43 -0000
<1184512183.628120.165180 RemoveThis @q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>:
> Computerized voting systems (aka DREs or Direct Recording Electronic)
> must be based on an operating system, for example, Windows or Linux.
>
> Linux has the advantage of being open so that all the source code can
> be open. Windows source code will not be opened to anyone.
>
> Some people have argued that the basic Windows operating system can
> remain secret as long as the voting application program (i.e. C,
> Python, etc) is open.
>
> Here are some questions about such an arrangement.
>
> 1. Could someone tamper with the Windows OS or put in some additional
> code that would not be found in an inspection of the application
> program that could alter the results?
>
> 2. Could viruses and other malware affect the OS and, ultimately, an
> election without its effects being detected by examining the
> application program?
>
> Any other comments are welcom.
>
> Thanks,
> Bill Edelstein
> Baltimore, MD
>

You have completely missed a fundamental (and unfortunate)
flaw in electronic voting machines. Regardless of OS,
hardware, or method, there's a disconnect on what is
displayed on the screen -- the voting choices, and the
user's selections among them -- and what is recorded.

One hopes this recording is done honestly -- and it is
possible that open source will be sufficient; I'd have
to think about it. I doubt it; Murphy was an optimist.
The vote is very easily lost (which is why TCP has
retransmission as part of its spec, for example).

And even if the vote is successfully transfered to tally
machine, the tally machine might be broken in a rather
interesting way. Sequoia in particular is the machines we
use around here. I'm not sure regarding their OS basis,
but from a voter's viewpoint a card (similar to a credit
card in general form factor, although it doesn't use
a magnetic stripe; it uses some sort of gold thing in
the middle) is inserted into the machine, the user votes
using a touchscreen, the card is ejected and inserted into
a tally box. Diebold could be using a similar system,
or simply network their votes into a central domain node
(I don't know). Either way, the user has no idea what's
going into that tally box or domain node, does he? One
*hopes* it's his voting selections...

At least with the old system -- the user wielded a small
awl through a plastic device that had flippable, numbered
holes; the Hollerith-like card is then boxed and read by
a card reader -- a recount is possible, and the user can
check the vote on the card, if he looks carefully at the
punch holes (conveniently numbered on the ballot proper,
if in small print). A borked or altered card reader can
be replaced if the vote is in dispute, and one discovers
the tampering.

One could still gimmick the system, of course, by losing
boxes filled with ballots from selected precincts,
or stuffing them, but that's a given no matter what
system one uses, though stuffing might be alleviated by
cross-checking; in my precinct each voter is identified
in a master book and is required to sign in -- which has
its own problems if a citizen is homeless. Not sure
regarding ballot/vote back-traceability; if Smith knows
Jones voted for Bob as opposed to Steve, blackmail could
ensue in extreme cases. Not a good thing.

The Canadians have an even simpler system, as I understand
it, similar to old "fill-in-the-bubble" mark-sense tests:
vote in the indicated square. No numbers required on the
ballot itself, though one has to contemplate such issues as
printing costs (since the ballot changes every election).
The votes are then hand-tallied.

Of course Canada isn't quite as big as the US in population,
even if they are bigger than the US in land area.

If one wants to contemplate even more sinister variants,
consider replacing the voting machine with an order
tracking system, which could record orders the user didn't
really want -- and then transfer funds from his account
to the vendors'. This sort of problem is obviously not
limited to electioneering/voting fraud.

There is also, of course, the fundamental disconnect
between the source code, which a human can understand
without much difficulty, if he is properly trained, and
the binary, which requires a specialist (or at least
a card which indicates what every numeric code does;
such cards might be obtained as PDFs from Intel but aren't
horribly enlightening to someone who doesn't understand
the basics of microprocessors and how machine code
is represented internally). Gentoo is an interesting
distro, from a Linux standpoint, and is one of the few
which requires the source code to be downloaded into a
user's computer and compiled on site, although special
considerations are available for some packages such as
OpenOffice -- because it's so big -- nVidia drivers, and
some proprietary games.

(AFAIK, most distros serve up prepackaged binaries.)

Scripting languages might be of some help there, if the
interpreting engine is thorougly verified -- but the
interpreting engine is by necessity binary. Ideally,
it would be structured roughly as a ballot, as in the
following hypothetical example:

vote_for[1]
Bob Jones
Steve Smith
Andrew Johnson
Mork from Ork
end vote

vote_for[1-3]
....
end vote

rank_vote
....
end rank_vote

pick_vote
"proposition 1: should government assess an additional
2% tax on landowners for environmental cleanup?"
"proposition 2: should government sell $100M of bonds for
the purposes of school improvement?"
"proposition 3: ..."
....
end pick_vote

(The third section might require some explanation; it
is designed to allow for "instant runoff" elections.
Basically, one indicates one's preferences by ordering
candidates: one might pick as first preference Steve Smith,
then Bob Jones, then Mork from Ork, then Andrew Johnson.
The tally system takes the ranking into account if one
candidate does not get a majority. The system is somewhat
experimental, but AIUI is already in use in some areas.)

The scripting language in this case looks a lot like
a simple, somewhat specialized GUI design system.
Vote-for-1 is a simple option menu/combobox; if one
wants write-in votes an editable combo box is possible.
(Most systems will probably use checkboxes or radio
buttons, which looks like a more traditional paper ballot.)
Vote-for-N is a multiple choice list with some constraints.
Rank voting is the most complicated, but GUI systems are
easily developed. Yes or No on propositions is a simple
check box, although I suspect in most systems one checks
one of two radio buttons, one marked Yes, the other No.

I'll admit I'm beginning to sound like a Luddite, but
technology is not always the best solution, though it
depends on the problem.

Welcome to the New World Order.

--
#191, ewill3 RemoveThis @earthlink.net
Useless C++ Programming Idea #110309238:
item * f(item *p) { if(p = NULL) return new item; else return p; }

--
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The Natural Philosopher

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Since: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 161



(Msg. 20) Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:37 am
Post subject: Re: Linux vs. windows for voting systems? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Aaron Gray wrote:
> "resonator80" <w.edelstein.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1184512183.628120.165180@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>> Computerized voting systems (aka DREs or Direct Recording Electronic)
>> must be based on an operating system, for example, Windows or Linux.
>>
>> Linux has the advantage of being open so that all the source code can
>> be open. Windows source code will not be opened to anyone.
>>
>> Some people have argued that the basic Windows operating system can
>> remain secret as long as the voting application program (i.e. C,
>> Python, etc) is open.
>>
>> Here are some questions about such an arrangement.
>>
>> 1. Could someone tamper with the Windows OS or put in some additional
>> code that would not be found in an inspection of the application
>> program that could alter the results?
>>
>> 2. Could viruses and other malware affect the OS and, ultimately, an
>> election without its effects being detected by examining the
>> application program?
>>
>> Any other comments are welcom.
>
> Only Linux is secure enough and able to be validated as secure. Windows is
> not capable of being validated as being secure.
>

Actually you have to go down to some special processors and real time
OS's before you can actually claim that.

> Aaron
>
>
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The Ghost In The Machine

External


Since: Apr 10, 2007
Posts: 676



(Msg. 21) Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:37 am
Post subject: Re: Linux vs. windows for voting systems? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In comp.os.linux.advocacy, The Natural Philosopher
<a.RemoveThis@b.c>
wrote
on Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:37:24 +0100
<1184578774.30277.0.RemoveThis@proxy02.news.clara.net>:
> Aaron Gray wrote:
>> "resonator80" <w.edelstein.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1184512183.628120.165180@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>> Computerized voting systems (aka DREs or Direct Recording Electronic)
>>> must be based on an operating system, for example, Windows or Linux.
>>>
>>> Linux has the advantage of being open so that all the source code can
>>> be open. Windows source code will not be opened to anyone.
>>>
>>> Some people have argued that the basic Windows operating system can
>>> remain secret as long as the voting application program (i.e. C,
>>> Python, etc) is open.
>>>
>>> Here are some questions about such an arrangement.
>>>
>>> 1. Could someone tamper with the Windows OS or put in some additional
>>> code that would not be found in an inspection of the application
>>> program that could alter the results?
>>>
>>> 2. Could viruses and other malware affect the OS and, ultimately, an
>>> election without its effects being detected by examining the
>>> application program?
>>>
>>> Any other comments are welcom.
>>
>> Only Linux is secure enough and able to be validated as secure. Windows is
>> not capable of being validated as being secure.
>>
>
> Actually you have to go down to some special processors and real time
> OS's before you can actually claim that.

NT was never C2-certified, though certain boxes using
NT were. There are various levels of security (C2 is
from a now-outdated spec, the somewhat imfamous "Orange
Book"; the new spec is available and has rankings from EAL1
through EAL7, if memory serves). The most secure systems,
IIRC, would have perfect auditability and the ability
to formally prove that the user is authorized to run a
program, and that the program has not been tampered with,
among other things.

Such systems are obviously not on a low-security computer
network, such as the Internet. Smile

>
>> Aaron
>>
>>


--
#191, ewill3.RemoveThis@earthlink.net
Linux. The choice of a GNU generation.
Windows. The choice of a bunch of people who like very weird behavior on
a regular basis, random crashes, and "extend, embrace, and extinguish".

--
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thad05

External


Since: May 10, 2007
Posts: 166



(Msg. 22) Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:56 am
Post subject: Re: Linux vs. windows for voting systems? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: comp>os>linux>advocacy (more info?)

Christopher Hunter <chrisehunter RemoveThis @nospamblueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> True. Also, "one man one vote" is a truly stupid way of electing a
> government!

.... but better than all the alternatives. Nevertheless, I think a
system utilizing a game show or reality television format has great
potential. It may not produce equitable government, but it would
certainly increase citizen participation and the viewership of
CSPAN. >Smile

> Completely agreed. However this silly "equal" voting system has got to go.
> Most countries /claim/ to be meritocracies - let's have votes based on
> wealth, property ownership, education and so on.

<sarcasm>
By all means lets throw out the last couple hundred years of
democratic progress and return to utopian time when justice
was reserved for the landed gentry. Everything after the
Magna Carta was a waste of time.
</sarcasm>

Thad
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thad05

External


Since: May 10, 2007
Posts: 166



(Msg. 23) Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:17 am
Post subject: Re: Linux vs. windows for voting systems? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: comp>os>linux>advocacy, others (more info?)

Mark Shroyer <usenet-mail RemoveThis @markshroyer.com> wrote:
>
> But checksums can't demonstrate any such thing to voters during an
> election. Picture this: you're standing at an electronic voting
> machine. It's powered on and you're interacting with its UI. How
> do you perform a checksum on the software while the computer is
> running? How could you possibly trust that the voting machine won't
> lie about the checksum itself?
>
> The only way to perform such a check is by reading the voting
> machine's non-volatile memory using an independent, trusted
> computer. That means shutting down the voting machine, ripping out
> its hard drive or flash memory, and connecting it to your laptop.
> Elections officials generally frown up on such behavior.

I can imagine a hardware design that performs a checksum of the
non-volatile memory during boot-up and compares it to a number on
some sort read-only dongle (perhaps locked inside the machine).
The system would refuse to boot if the numbers do not match.
This is not a perfect system, but would reduce the risk of
undetected tampering as long as security and proper chain of
custody is maintained regarding the dongle. This would not
stop hacking via determined and corrupt election officials, but
would reduce the risk from other outside actors.

Of course as long as we are using paperless, touchscreen machines
to count and store the votes, the integrity of the electoral system
is at intolerable risk, and all attempts to make a secure system
is pointless mental acrobatics. Votes should be cast on paper
ballots. By all means, use machines to scan and count them, but
only paper ballots provide an acceptable level of transparency and
fault tolerance.

Later,

Thad
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chrisv

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Since: Apr 10, 2007
Posts: 357



(Msg. 24) Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:18 am
Post subject: Re: Linux vs. windows for voting systems? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Erik Funkenbusch wrote:

> it doesn't matter if there are trained
>squirrels doing the tabulation or evil overlords or George Bush himself.

What would be the difference in any of those?
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Erik Funkenbusch

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Since: Apr 10, 2007
Posts: 191



(Msg. 25) Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:52 am
Post subject: Re: Linux vs. windows for voting systems? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 14:18:24 -0500, chrisv wrote:

> Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>
>> it doesn't matter if there are trained
>>squirrels doing the tabulation or evil overlords or George Bush himself.
>
> What would be the difference in any of those?

Fair point.
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s. keeling

External


Since: Jul 16, 2007
Posts: 14



(Msg. 26) Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:54 am
Post subject: Re: Linux vs. windows for voting systems? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.os.linux.]
Christopher Hunter <chrisehunter DeleteThis @NOSPAMblueyonder.co.uk>:
> Mark Shroyer wrote:
> >
> > it's a function of the economy. All the government has to do is
> > provide a level playing field -- for the rich and poor, educated and
> > uneducated alike.
>
> Any government that tries to "provide a level playing field" is guaranteed
> to fail. A quick look at the history of communism will show you that!

That was not leveling the playing field. It was leveling the players.

"From each according to their abilities, to each according to
their need."

That's bound to drive out the capable, and institutionalize indolence.


--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(*) Linux Counter #80292
- - http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html Please, don't Cc: me.
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Erik Funkenbusch

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Since: Apr 10, 2007
Posts: 191



(Msg. 27) Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:54 am
Post subject: Re: Linux vs. windows for voting systems? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 13:17:51 -0500, thad05 RemoveThis @tux.glaci.delete-this.com wrote:

> Of course as long as we are using paperless, touchscreen machines
> to count and store the votes, the integrity of the electoral system
> is at intolerable risk, and all attempts to make a secure system
> is pointless mental acrobatics. Votes should be cast on paper
> ballots. By all means, use machines to scan and count them, but
> only paper ballots provide an acceptable level of transparency and
> fault tolerance.

I agree, but that doesn't mean they have to be hand marked. Hand marking
is where most of the problems are, because humans can easily mess that up.
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Nedd Ludd

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Since: Apr 24, 2007
Posts: 34



(Msg. 28) Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Linux vs. windows for voting systems? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: comp>os>linux>advocacy (more info?)

"Christopher Hunter" <chrisehunter.DeleteThis@NOSPAMblueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:sWumi.27160$jY5.10338@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
: Hadron wrote:
:
: > Here's another one : could someone compile their own kernel in Linux and
: > do it even easier? Answer: yes.
:
: Yes, but the code would be open to examination by all...
:
: C.

You'd still don't know if the code being examined is the code that is loaded
on the system.
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Oldtech

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Since: Jun 14, 2007
Posts: 113



(Msg. 29) Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Linux vs. windows for voting systems? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: comp>os>linux>advocacy, others (more info?)

Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 14:18:24 -0500, chrisv wrote:
>
>> Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>>
>>> it doesn't matter if there are trained
>>> squirrels doing the tabulation or evil overlords or George Bush himself.
>> What would be the difference in any of those?
>
> Fair point.
I could see a potential for marketing of larger nuts, to the larger nut
jobs...
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[H]omer

External


Since: Apr 10, 2007
Posts: 980



(Msg. 30) Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Linux vs. windows for voting systems? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: comp>os>linux>advocacy (more info?)

Verily I say unto thee, that thad05 RemoveThis @tux.glaci.delete-this.com spake thusly:

> <sarcasm>
> By all means lets throw out the last couple hundred years of
> democratic progress and return to utopian time when justice
> was reserved for the landed gentry. Everything after the
> Magna Carta was a waste of time.
> </sarcasm>

Careful. I'm sure there are more than a couple of Trolls in this group
who would truly welcome such a move.

--
K.
http://slated.org

..----
| "Computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pac man affected us as
| kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching pills
| and listening to repetitive music." - Kristian Wilson, Nintendo
`----

Fedora release 7 (Moonshine) on sky, running kernel 2.6.21-1.3194.fc7
20:15:16 up 15 days, 19:09, 2 users, load average: 0.56, 0.65, 0.44
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