Digg spurns Google for young Microsoft ..

On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:13:48 +0000, waterskidoo wrote:

> I think it's human nature to assume that a person who posts a large
> number of messages must have some ulterior motive.
> This is especially true in the type of forums we are talking
> about *advocacy, digg, etc.
> Go into a Toyota group and start posting all kinds of pro-Toyota
> messages and people are going to assume you are a shill for
> Toyota.

And usually, IMO, they'll be wrong. It may occasionally be true, but I
doubt it's nearly as widespread as some people believe it is. No one is
surprised when Linux fans posts a lot of pro-Linux stuff, against MS, so
why is anyone surprised that MS/Windows fans do likewise in the opposite
direction?

Just being pro-Windows or even anti-Linux doesn't endow a person with a
tail and horns.

--
Kier

On 2007-07-27, Kier <vallon.RemoveThis@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

>
> And usually, IMO, they'll be wrong. It may occasionally be true, but I
> doubt it's nearly as widespread as some people believe it is. No one is
> surprised when Linux fans posts a lot of pro-Linux stuff, against MS, so
> why is anyone surprised that MS/Windows fans do likewise in the opposite
> direction?
>
> Just being pro-Windows or even anti-Linux doesn't endow a person with a
> tail and horns.

I agree. There is no doubt that companies have shills that fluff the
forums, but I don't believe it is as widespread as some people
believe.
I try to either avoid the suspected shills all together or
give the benefit of doubt until proved otherwise.

In article <pan.2007.07.27.21.44.16.681604 DeleteThis @tiscali.co.uk>,
Kier <vallon DeleteThis @tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> And usually, IMO, they'll be wrong. It may occasionally be true, but I
> doubt it's nearly as widespread as some people believe it is. No one is
> surprised when Linux fans posts a lot of pro-Linux stuff, against MS, so
> why is anyone surprised that MS/Windows fans do likewise in the opposite
> direction?

Well, Roy's theory is that there *aren't* any MS/Windows fans. The only
people who post or write anything positive about it are those who have
been paid to do so.

He has said this on Digg, where the majority of the users are using
Windows, and he wonders why a lot of them don't like him...


--
--Tim Smith

On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 21:10:45 -0700, cc wrote:

>> ...Not to mention someone who rated about 1500 of my messages in Google Group
>> to game the system and lower me from 4/5 to 2/5.
>
> Ever consider that some of us Google Group users think your posts are
> worthy of the 1 star? I can't say I've rated 1500 posts, but I have
> rated some with incorrect subjects, off-topic posts, and general
> stupidity, 1 star, just like I've given 5 to posts I feel deserve it.
> It's our right as Google Groups users to rate posts as we see fit. If
> someone actually liked your posts then surely they would rate them
> higher.

The truly disturbing part, and the part that showcases Roy's
obsessive/compulsive nature is that he actually *knows* this. He tracks
everything that happens with his posts, anywhere he goes. I'm certain he
keeps a database of all this, along with his "lists" of those that are out
to get him.

I mean, come on. How would you even KNOW if someone had rated 1500 of your
posts unless you were being obsessed with your own words.

I think Roy believes history will show him to single handedly have made
linux a success.

____/ cc on Saturday 28 July 2007 05:10 : \____

> On Jul 26, 6:05 pm, Roy Schestowitz <newsgro....TakeThisOut@schestowitz.com>
> wrote:
>> ____/ waterskidoo on Thursday 26 July 2007 16:58 : \____
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 2007-07-26, Roy Schestowitz <newsgro....TakeThisOut@schestowitz.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> Digg has _a lot_ of content that slams Microsoft, promotes Linux, hails
>> >> Apple, and so forth. Microsoft would love to have some control over parts
>> >> of these pages.
>>
>> >> Digg is no place for Microsoft fans. Digg is a place where technologists
>> >> reside and they see (and know) beyond that kissie-kissie Bill Gates stuff
>> >> that invaded mainstream press.
>>
>> >> Rest assured Microsoft will pollute Digg with its disinformation. I have
>> >> written to their staff about it, so hopefully someone will take notice.
>>
>> > For advertising space I would agree with you but how is Microsoft going
>> > to censor people's opinions?
>> > If anything, being officially involved with Digg, would be detrimental
>> > to Microsoft *stuffing the ballot box* so to speak.
>> > Microsoft would be better off hiring a herd of astroturfers to
>> > seed Digg's discussions whilst distancing themselves from
>> > Digg officially.
>> > Don't get me wrong, I smell a rat, a big bloated rat that
>> > wears funny glasses but I'm not sure how advertising space
>> > would alter digg's opinion based content, ie:discussions.
>>
>> Some argue that Microsoft has been astroturfing Digg for about a year. This
>> drove away some regulars who like Free software. I'm still wondering who is
>> patient enough to go through ~50 comments of mine every day and mod them
>> down systematically. Unless they get paid, this takes a lot of perseverance.
>>
>> ...Not to mention someone who rated about 1500 of my messages in Google
>> Group to game the system and lower me from 4/5 to 2/5.
>
> Ever consider that some of us Google Group users think your posts are
> worthy of the 1 star? I can't say I've rated 1500 posts, but I have
> rated some with incorrect subjects, off-topic posts, and general
> stupidity, 1 star, just like I've given 5 to posts I feel deserve it.
> It's our right as Google Groups users to rate posts as we see fit. If
> someone actually liked your posts then surely they would rate them
> higher.
>
> Also, I thought you had killfiled all google posts, so why would you
> care what you're rated? That's a rhetorical question, we all know why.

No, I never killfiled anything from G2. I just highlight it in blue because
it's often SPAM, especially in other newsgroups. I recently filtered Outlook
Express because the "Dr X" troll was nymshifting endlessly. He was abusive, so
I'm glad he's gone for now.

As for those 1500 rating that I spoke about, this happened in a matter of
weeks. Someone systematically rated every single message of line 1/5. It
happened at the beginning of the year, but I can't recall which month.

--
~~ Best of wishes

Roy S. Schestowitz | http://debian.org
http://Schestowitz.com | RHAT GNU/Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
run-level 2 2007-06-16 18:32 last=
http://iuron.com - help build a non-profit search engine

In article <1hul39jxe5u6h$.dlg@funkenbusch.com>,
Erik Funkenbusch <erik DeleteThis @despam-funkenbusch.com> wrote:
> The truly disturbing part, and the part that showcases Roy's
> obsessive/compulsive nature is that he actually *knows* this. He tracks
> everything that happens with his posts, anywhere he goes. I'm certain he
> keeps a database of all this, along with his "lists" of those that are out
> to get him.

Consider that Roy says that there are one or more people who dig down
his comments on Digg, which number about 50 comments a day. According
to Roy, the amount of time and effort it would take to do that is such
that it must be someone being paid.

But it is a lot more time and effort to write and post 50 comments a day
than it is to find them and dig them down. Therefore, BY ROY'S OWN
ARGUMENT, Roy must be being paid to comment.

If he's paid for it, it's not that disturbing that he keeps stats.

--
--Tim Smith

On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:49:49 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:

> In article <pan.2007.07.27.21.44.16.681604.TakeThisOut@tiscali.co.uk>,
> Kier <vallon.TakeThisOut@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>> And usually, IMO, they'll be wrong. It may occasionally be true, but I
>> doubt it's nearly as widespread as some people believe it is. No one is
>> surprised when Linux fans posts a lot of pro-Linux stuff, against MS, so
>> why is anyone surprised that MS/Windows fans do likewise in the opposite
>> direction?
>
> Well, Roy's theory is that there *aren't* any MS/Windows fans. The only

If so, that's a rather foolish opinion. We as Linux users may not like the
idea that many people are not only not dissatisfied with Windows, but
actually like it and enjoy using it, but denying this fact is the wrong
way to go about promoting Linux to them.

> people who post or write anything positive about it are those who have
> been paid to do so.
>
> He has said this on Digg, where the majority of the users are using
> Windows, and he wonders why a lot of them don't like him...

A lot of Windows users may well be pretty neutral on the issue, but I
can't believe *none* of them like the OS they're using, that they all have
to be paid to defend it or praise it. That's ridiculous.

It's time we as advocates got away from this kind of thinking. Yes,
Windows and MS have their faults, some of them large and glaring and in
great need of fixing. But pointing out faults and saying that anyone who
uses Windows is a shill or a fool isn't the way to attract people to Linux.

--
Kier

waterskidoo <water.skidoo.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> writes:

> On 2007-07-27, Erik Funkenbusch <erik.TakeThisOut@despam-funkenbusch.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 05:33:00 +0100, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>
>>> When I came to think about it, the shills won in a way. I no longer submit many
>>> stories that criticise or expose Microsoft. When I did, then quite
>>> immediately, the 'usual suspects' would strike within minutes or hours. You
>>> can find like 10-30 comments on Comes vs Microsoft submissions that never even
>>> made the front page (they got buried beforehand). Many of them still have PR5,
>>> so a simply Google search leads to them (like a gateway to a PDF that cannot
>>> be interpreted).
>>
>> No, Roy. You are completely dense and unable to comprehend the truth.
>>
>> The fact of the matter is, you made enemies on Digg. Lots of them.
>> Because you posted your usual fraudulent headlines and made inappropriate
>> and off-topic comments. Digg users don't like that, and they retaliated
>> against you. For example, when you accused a particular blogger of only
>> posting pro-microsoft stories when only a few of his hundreds of stories
>> were microsoft related.
>>
>> You seem unable to understand how your attitude and actions cause people to
>> dislike you. You're only conclusion is that they must be paid shills,
>> because you can't conceive that people might not actually like what you
>> say, or how you say it, or the methods you use to say it.
>>
>> Why don't you take a good hard look at yourself, your posting history, the
>> comments people have made to you, etc..
>
> I think it's human nature to assume that a person who posts a large
> number of messages must have some ulterior motive.

Of course he does have an ulterior motive or he wouldn't do it. Roy is
all about Roy.

> This is especially true in the type of forums we are talking
> about *advocacy, digg, etc.
> Go into a Toyota group and start posting all kinds of pro-Toyota
> messages and people are going to assume you are a shill for
> Toyota.



--

On 2007-07-28, Kier <vallon DeleteThis @tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:49:49 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:

> If so, that's a rather foolish opinion. We as Linux users may not like the
> idea that many people are not only not dissatisfied with Windows, but
> actually like it and enjoy using it, but denying this fact is the wrong
> way to go about promoting Linux to them.

I have a friend like that who absolutely hates iTunes.
I agree with his points, but I also acknowledge that iTunes is
hugely popular and if not the most used legal download site
is certainly near the top of the list.
He refuses to acknowledge this and believes it's all hype
in order to sell iPods, which he hates as well.

As for Windows one has to separate the product from the user.
From a design POV or say a technical POV Windows has problems.
However that does not prevent the majority of computer users
from happily using it. Windows is everywhere running businesses
monitoring critical devices and collecting data and that's
a fact.
Would Linux be a better choice?
Probably in most cases at least in my opinion.
The point is, denying Windows popularity just makes the
person look silly.


> A lot of Windows users may well be pretty neutral on the issue, but I
> can't believe *none* of them like the OS they're using, that they all have
> to be paid to defend it or praise it. That's ridiculous.

Zealots are everywhere but I find less Windows zealots than Apple
or Linux zealots and when I run into a true Windows zealot
often I get the feeling that this person has an agenda.
The Vista group seems to have a few of this type.
As an example, my friends like Windows and many of them
are power users who spend a lot of time pounding the keyboard.
They don't frequent Windows advocacy groups or blogs singing
hymns to Bill Gates. They just use the product and accept or
work around the faults. Some of them are getting into Linux now
and they seem to be liking it so who knows.
I think that the lack of traffic in the Windows advocacy groups
is an indicator of what I am saying.

> It's time we as advocates got away from this kind of thinking. Yes,
> Windows and MS have their faults, some of them large and glaring and in
> great need of fixing. But pointing out faults and saying that anyone who
> uses Windows is a shill or a fool isn't the way to attract people to Linux.

Well said.

On 2007-07-28, Hadron <hadronquark.TakeThisOut@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Of course he does have an ulterior motive or he wouldn't do it. Roy is
> all about Roy.

He seems pleasant enough to me so I'm not sure why you appear to dislike
Roy so much. I don't think I have ever encountered a person so
*on fire* for Linux which is exactly the kind of person a Linux
advocacy group needs.
Apparently Roy is ruffling the feathers of people who have a
stake in the Windows vs Linux battle because he seems
to be a lightening rod for attacks which makes me wonder
what the motives of the people attacking him are.

In article <f8flk2$6mk$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
waterskidoo <water.skidoo DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> He seems pleasant enough to me so I'm not sure why you appear to dislike
> Roy so much. I don't think I have ever encountered a person so
> *on fire* for Linux which is exactly the kind of person a Linux
> advocacy group needs.

Linux advocacy needs people who lie? For example:

<http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/browse_frm/thread/
ab5d29de8a28d6f0/>

Explain how that was good for Linux advocacy.

--
--Tim Smith

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 17:06:19 +0200, Hadron wrote:

> waterskidoo <water.skidoo.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> On 2007-07-28, Kier <vallon.DeleteThis@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:49:49 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:
>>
>>> If so, that's a rather foolish opinion. We as Linux users may not like
>>> the idea that many people are not only not dissatisfied with Windows,
>>> but actually like it and enjoy using it, but denying this fact is the
>>> wrong way to go about promoting Linux to them.
>>
>> I have a friend like that who absolutely hates iTunes.
>
> Why would anyone hate iTunes?

Why don't you ask the person that "hates" iTunes. There are people with
different tastes than you, you know.

> It's much easier to use for playlists than
> any Linux player I can think of. More importantly it has built in
> normalization which no Linux player has afaik (I would gladly be
> corrected on this one).
>
> I can understand someone preferring, say, Amarok, but to "hate" iTunes
> wreaks of the zealot to me.

It is a phrase, jerk.

>
>> I agree with his points, but I also acknowledge that iTunes is hugely
>> popular and if not the most used legal download site is certainly near
>> the top of the list. He refuses to acknowledge this and believes it's
>> all hype in order to sell iPods, which he hates as well.
>
> Aha. We are beginning to see a pattern. iPods, as their sales have
> proven, are wonderfully designed and functional. Great devices and
> continue to dominate the market.

iTunes and iPods sell each other. Apparently Apple is hoping iTunes/iPods
will sell more Macs.

>
>> As for Windows one has to separate the product from the user. From a
>> design POV or say a technical POV Windows has problems.
>
> So does Linux. It's SW. All SW has problems. The slow and tortuous move
> to ALSA as the sound architecture being one. The horrible support for
> ATI cards being another. The total inability to use USB Wireless dongles
> being another (or has that improved?).

You mean you don't know? Wow.

>
>> However that does not prevent the majority of computer users from
>> happily using it. Windows is everywhere running businesses monitoring
>> critical devices and collecting data and that's a fact.
>> Would Linux be a better choice?
>> Probably in most cases at least in my opinion.
>
> Really? For the average desktop? Actually yes. I think it would (now)
> too. But it's simply too late. It missed the boat. And why? Because
> fools like Gregory Shearman didn't want to improve anything as it was
> "good enough for them" 10 years ago. It took real people with real
> foresight (people like Mark Shuttleworth) to see the potential and to
> address the issues. And what do we find? Suddenly DELL is back to
> shipping Linux (Ubuntu) boxes.

So, is it your position that Anaconda has never improved? Or Mandriva's
installer? Or Suse's? Are you saying Ubuntu is the only distro with
improved installers and user friendliness?

>
>> The point is, denying Windows popularity just makes the person look
>> silly.
>
> And so does predicting Windows demise and lying about the uptake in
> Linux which is so common practice by the likes of Roy "spammer"
> Schestowitz, Mark Kent, chrisv, AB, High Plains Rafael etc.

Speaking of lies, when are are you going to provide quotes of my supposed
lies?

>
>>> A lot of Windows users may well be pretty neutral on the issue, but I
>>> can't believe *none* of them like the OS they're using, that they all
>>> have to be paid to defend it or praise it. That's ridiculous.
>
> Of course. But "ridiculous == normal" in COLA. It's the way.

That may be true. After all, you post here.

>
> The good thing about Kier is that he IS realistic most of the time.
>
>
>> Zealots are everywhere but I find less Windows zealots than Apple or
>> Linux zealots and when I run into a true Windows zealot often I get the
>> feeling that this person has an agenda.
>
> All zealots have an agenda. It's why they are zealots.

You should know.

--
Rick

After takin' a swig o' grog, waterskidoo belched out this bit o' wisdom:

> As for Windows one has to separate the product from the user.
> From a design POV or say a technical POV Windows has problems.
> However that does not prevent the majority of computer users
> from happily using it. Windows is everywhere running businesses
> monitoring critical devices and collecting data and that's
> a fact.

Majority...happily? Not sure I'd go that far. I do know a couple guys
who really enjoy using Windows, and I know a couple of guys who really
dislike it. The majority just use it and plow through any problems it
causes.

Windows is everywhere? No. You need more qualifiers to that statement.
It is pretty prevalent. It is capable of monitoring <grin> critical
devices.

>> A lot of Windows users may well be pretty neutral on the issue, but I
>> can't believe *none* of them like the OS they're using, that they all have
>> to be paid to defend it or praise it. That's ridiculous.
>
> Zealots are everywhere but I find less Windows zealots than Apple
> or Linux zealots

Probably because Linux and Apple provide some pretty exciting systems,
certainly different and smoother than Windows in many ways.

> and when I run into a true Windows zealot
> often I get the feeling that this person has an agenda.

As opposed to really loving Windows best?

--
Tux rox!