A few questions

In <slrnhe372u.i8s.houghi RemoveThis @penne.houghi>, on 10/23/2009
at 02:06 PM, houghi <houghi RemoveThis @houghi.org.invalid> said:

>To me running a program is never desktop related. At least it never
>should be.

It should be if the purpose of the program is to manipulate the desktop.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>

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In <slrnhe2ocu.eb0.houghi.DeleteThis@penne.houghi>, on 10/23/2009
at 09:56 AM, houghi <houghi.DeleteThis@houghi.org.invalid> said:

>That is just my website. My real adress that I use is hackme.houghi.org
>Try it out!

"Cruel, but all very well for a spree" (Rev LD)

--
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On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 05:10:59 -0500, Rick asked:

> The font I was talking of are for the Windows stuff... toolbars,
> File, edit... that stuff.

If you want to change the font for the window title bars, the icon fonts,
the clip font etc, then you need to change the style file which you are
using, either for the user under

$HOME/GNUstep/Library/WindowMaker/Styles

$HOME/GNUstep/Library/WindowMaker/Themes

or globally under

/usr/share/WindowMaker/Styles

/usr/share/WindowMaker/Themes

which contain font settings eg with Xft font designation

ClipTitleFont = "Verdana:bold:pixelsize=12";
DisplayFont = "Trebuchet MS,Luxi Sans:bold:pixelsize=18";
IconTitleFont = "Arial,Luxi Sans:bold:pixelsize=10";
LargeDisplayFont = "Trebuchet MS,Luxi Sans:bold:pixelsize=42";
MenuTextFont = "Trebuchet MS,Luxi Sans:pixelsize=15";
MenuTitleFont = "Trebuchet MS,Luxi Sans:bold:pixelsize=16";
WindowTitleFont = "Trebuchet MS,Luxi Sans:bold:pixelsize=16";

You can also manage your settings with WPrefs (the equivalent of Gnome or KDE
Control Center).

On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 14:06:54 +0200, houghi wrote:

> To me running a program is never desktop related. At least it never
> should be.

And programs that alter the appearance of the desktop?

On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 23:58:45 -0700, Kevin Nathan wrote:

> I believe fvwm2 also has not changed its look very much.

The appearance of FVWM is very, very much dependent on the configuration.
FVWM even does transparent titlebars and menus.

You can almost convincingly make it look like Windows 95 if you wished.

In <slrnhe2q29.eb0.houghi.DeleteThis@penne.houghi>, on 10/23/2009
at 10:24 AM, houghi <houghi.DeleteThis@houghi.org.invalid> said:

>And they are right. The natural behaviour of people is "If it ain't
>broke, don't fix it."

People also have inappropriate curiosity. The best way to get people to
try something is to post a "don't touch" sign. Another datum: people who
swap a perfectly fine 3-year old car for a new one, with unpredictable
manufacturing defects.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>

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On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 10:19:10 +0200
houghi <houghi.TakeThisOut@houghi.org.invalid> wrote:

>Kevin Nathan wrote:
>> I would start by installing every desktop/window manager that
>> openSUSE offers and check each one out. Find the ones that seem
>> 'natural' to you and have the required features. Then let some of
>> your clients check it out, see which one they liked.
>
>It sounds like a good idea, but it is not really fair to test stuff and
>really apriciate the extra things it can do for you.

But this isn't a case of personal preference on the part of the poster;
it is about trying to lessen the changes the users will see with an
update.


>I treid out XFCE once for three months and then only started to
>apriciate what I liked and started to understand the limitations it
>had. Windowmaker I treid out for some months as well, befor I decided
>on it. Before that I used Enlightement!.
>

I try to do that, too. I may not take three months on each (more like a
week) but I don't just do my 'normal' work -- I dig into the desktop
docs and experiment pretty heavily for that week. Lately, I haven't had
the time to do that like I prefer, but hopefully soon...


>> We did that with Ubuntu/Kubuntu when we were switching over a client
>> from Windows to Linux about three years ago. We upgraded two of their
>> machines, one with Ubuntu (GNOME) and one with Kubuntu (KDE) and let
>> them use them for several weeks. They settled on Kubuntu.
>
>Why not also other desktops?

At the time, there was no Xubuntu (of which we were aware then), so it
was KDE or GNOME. It is very difficult to run a different dm/wm on
[U|Ku]buntu, at least from what we saw. We picked the [U|Ku]buntu as
being the fastest to install (we had to do 60 installs for the first
customer in five widely scattered offices with only two techs to do the
work) and easiest to use. openSUSE was not an option because the boss
refused to use it, no idea why.


>And why settle on one? I am asuming the
>customer is a company and not an individual. It could very well be that
>60% would love to work with KDE and 40% with GNOME (as you have given
>them no options)
>

The first client was the biggest (5 offices, 60 desktops) and the owner
did not want multiple desktops. The employees also moved around quite a
bit, desk to desk, office to office, so they needed to be as close to
the same as possible. They weren't even allowed to customize the look
very much, since they didn't have a 'my' computer except for the few
office managers that did not move from desk to desk!


>I am not sure about *buntu, but openSUSE makes KDE and GNOME in the
>same look and feel, so running both in a company should not be an
>issue. The only question you need to ask is if they rather kill
>puppies or kittens.
>

As mentioned above, all *SUSE products (read: Novell) were off-limits.
We could have it on our own computers in the company but that was it.
Even then, if there was any problem whatsoever, it was *SUSE's fault. No
idea why he feels that way, but he pays the salary!


--
Kevin Nathan (Arizona, USA)
Linux Potpourri and a.o.l.s. FAQ -- (temporarily offline)

Open standards. Open source. Open minds.
The command line is the front line.
Linux 2.6.25.20-0.5-pae
9:44am up 1 day 23:58, 37 users, load average: 0.36, 0.30, 0.22

Kevin Nathan wrote:

> On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 23:57:08 -0600
> Will Honea <whonea DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>That's where I'm headed but the major hangup is any change at all
>>since they most of the desktops are recent converts from Windows -
>>mostly XP - and I'm getting this "you want us to change AGAIN?"
>>response.
>
> Well, I would remind them that every time they upgraded Windows, they
> had to re-learn many things -- I'm still hearing that complaint from
> the Windows users I know. With many Linux desktop/window managers, the
> look and feel doesn't change very fast (except KDE and GNOME which I
> believe are trying to hard to mimic their respective target markets of
> Windows and Apple). For example, icewm still has the Windows 98-like
> look and feel that I first saw back in 2000. I'm not as familiar with
> XFCE, so not sure how much it might have changed, but from some
> screenshots I have seen, it might be a contender for you. I believe
> fvwm2 also has not changed its look very much.
>
> For more desktop/window managers, see:
>
> http://xwinman.org/
>
> there might be some gems in there for you!
>
>
>>My current inclination is to leave 11.1/KDE3 in place for a
>>year or so before fighting the battle and then switching the desktop
>>at the same time I upgrade the os. For a novice Linux user coming
>>from Windows the change in appearance alone is a problem. Is there
>>anything out there to make KDE4 look and act like KDE3? that might
>>also be a possibility.
>>
>
> I don't use KDE4, will probably look at it again in another few months,
> but I have heard people say (on this newsgroup) that they have it
> looking pretty close to KDE 3.5.
>
> XFCE might be your closest match. The latest screenshots (2005) on
> xwinman.org seem to look close to WinXP.

Ah, that goes along with the number of companies that have stuck with XP
(and a few with w2k. MS has been slow at producing major, paradigm
changing versions which also contributes to the uptake delays and it
supports old releases far beyond the OS two year window. Side note:
consider also to presence of the XP mode in W7 and the underwhelming
response to Vista.

Part of the Linux issue is the modular nature of the generic Linux product:
multiple independent development branches essentially packaged by multiple
end products. Like anything else, TANSTAAFL: there is a price for every
design decision.

The basic issue I have is probably more related to openSuse's strategy for
updates as much as anything. The difficulty of upgrading one module - most
specifically the kernel - while retaining the rest of the system reliably
bugs me more than anything. I concede that there are good reasons for the
policy but....

Anyway, time to retire the soapbox and get on with getting on.

--
Will Honea

DenverD wrote:

> Will Honea wrote:
>> My current inclination is to leave 11.1/KDE3 in place for a year or
>> so before fighting the battle and then switching the desktop at the
>> same time I upgrade the os.
>
> this forums.opensuse thread <http://tinyurl.com/yzsx9vy> (which i
> stumbled across) seems to indicate that it is *not* so hard to have
> KDE3.5.10 on openSUSE 11.2 !!
>
> just add a repo, install with yast/zyper, select (from the user login
> screen) and go..
>
> anyone wanna try?

That's the one I was looking for - thanks. I need to tweek my article
timeout in the newsreader - I keep losing things.

--
Will Honea

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz wrote:

> In <4adfea26$0$56769$edfadb0f@dtext02.news.tele.dk>, on 10/22/2009
> at 07:14 AM, DenverD <spam.trap.RemoveThis@SOMEwhere.dk> said:
>
>>of course you are right...had forgotten...M$ has copyright notices inside
>>the executables [remember, IBM & M$ teamed together to develop the
>>superior OS, OS/2]
>
> I believe that the m$ code is in PM rather than in WPS, but that IBM is
> not willing to open source even the parts that are not legally encumbered.

You are correct again. The real benefit of WPS is, however, tightly linked
to PM features so the usefulness of one w/o the other is debatable.

--
Will Honea

On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 13:40:22 +0000, J G Miller wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 05:10:59 -0500, Rick asked:
>
>> The font I was talking of are for the Windows stuff... toolbars, File,
>> edit... that stuff.
>
> If you want to change the font for the window title bars, the icon
> fonts, the clip font etc, then you need to change the style file which
> you are using, either for the user under
>
> $HOME/GNUstep/Library/WindowMaker/Styles
>
> $HOME/GNUstep/Library/WindowMaker/Themes
>
> or globally under
>
> /usr/share/WindowMaker/Styles
>
> /usr/share/WindowMaker/Themes
>
> which contain font settings eg with Xft font designation
>
> ClipTitleFont = "Verdana:bold:pixelsize=12"; DisplayFont
> = "Trebuchet MS,Luxi Sans:bold:pixelsize=18"; IconTitleFont
> = "Arial,Luxi Sans:bold:pixelsize=10"; LargeDisplayFont =
> "Trebuchet MS,Luxi Sans:bold:pixelsize=42"; MenuTextFont =
> "Trebuchet MS,Luxi Sans:pixelsize=15"; MenuTitleFont =
> "Trebuchet MS,Luxi Sans:bold:pixelsize=16"; WindowTitleFont =
> "Trebuchet MS,Luxi Sans:bold:pixelsize=16";
>
> You can also manage your settings with WPrefs (the equivalent of Gnome
> or KDE Control Center).

Thanks.


I can change all the fonts listed using Wprefs or wmakerconf. I am
trying to change the fonts for the windows stuff, File, Edic, Copy, the
stuff i the toolbars, etc. If that is addressed in your info, I din't see
it.



--
Rick

> That's the one I was looking for - thanks. I need to tweek my article
> timeout in the newsreader - I keep losing things.

HINT: use the site specific search function of google--it is SO cool..

for example, this searches ONLY the forums of openSUSE:

site:forums.opensuse.org kde3 11.2

while, this catches the wiki and everything:

site:opensuse.org kde3 11.2

--
DenverD (Linux Counter 282315) via Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (20090817),
KDE 3.5.7 "release 72-11", openSUSE Linux 10.3, 2.6.22.19-0.4-default
#1 SMP i686 athlon

In <yWkEm.6703$hO1.6339@newsfe21.iad>, on 10/23/2009
at 10:34 AM, Will Honea <whonea RemoveThis @yahoo.com> said:

>You are correct again. The real benefit of WPS is, however, tightly
>linked to PM features so the usefulness of one w/o the other is
>debatable.

How much work would it be to write an open source PM clone as an X client?
I suspect that it would be far smaller than WPS.

Of course, it wouldn't do any good to open source WPS unless they also
open sourced DSOM.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>

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