Questions about Ubuntu

On Tue, Feb 28, 2006 at 07:23:08PM +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> Hi everybody,
>
> here are some questions for all candidates. They are related to the
> Debian-Ubuntu cooperation. (If you're not a candidate and wish to give me
> your opinion on that subject, please do so by private mail or move the
> discussion elsewhere like debian-project)
>
> 1/ What is your personal opinion about Ubuntu ?

I wrote in my plateform that "I decided to join Debian because it is a
successfull fully volunteer project, and the political significance of
that appealed to me, more than the purely technical aspect.". Another
less political, more immediate point of being a fully volunteer project
is that I can ran for leadership.

As I understand, this aspect is completly lost in Ubuntu. Most major
design decisions in Ubuntu are made by developers working for Canonical,
not volunteers.

I have never used Ubuntu, so I have no technical opinion.

Cheers,
--
Bill. <ballombe RemoveThis @debian.org>

Imagine a large red swirl here.


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On Tue, Feb 28, 2006 at 12:56:58PM -0800, Ted Walther wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 28, 2006 at 03:22:13PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote:
> >On Tue, Feb 28, 2006 at 11:33:31AM -0800, Ted Walther wrote:
> >>Good question. Maybe we should start up a debian-ubuntu mailing
> >>list, and find out. Perhaps people with a gripe about Ubuntu should
> >>write them up on http://wiki.debian.org/UbuntuGripe
> >
> >Have you been paying attention to any of the thousands of mails that
> >have already been written on this subject? Ample data is already out
> >there, if you would care to take a little time to analyze it.
>
> If you think there is more information in those messages besides the
> fact that Ubuntu isn't harming Debian, and Debian isn't harming Ubuntu,
> then I hereby delegate you to summarize those mails, in your own words.
> I'm ready to hear what you have to say.

First off you have no right to delegate much of anything without winning
the election. Furthermore, I'm going to have to decline your offer because
I have an X Strike Force to lead.

But because I care about this issue far more than you appear to, I'll do
even better than you asked for. I'll provide you with expert opinion on how
to solve the problem from someone who's actually collaborated very publicly
and visibly with Ubuntu to Debian's benefit:

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2006/01/msg00481.html

I look forward to watching you implement these suggestions among the wide
body of developers, whether or not you wear the mantle of DPL.

- David Nusinow


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Bill Allombert <allomber DeleteThis @math.u-bordeaux.fr> wrote:

> As I understand, this aspect is completly lost in Ubuntu. Most major
> design decisions in Ubuntu are made by developers working for Canonical,
> not volunteers.

This is entirely untrue. I've made a large number of design decisions in
Ubuntu, and am not a Canonical employee. The specifications that guide
most aspects of the OS design are written in collaboration between
Canonical staff and other developers, even though responsibility for
implementing those specifications often falls to staff.
https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+specs has the list of current
specifications.

(I reply for information rather than because I think a discussion of the
Ubuntu development process is especially topical or interesting)

--
Matthew Garrett | mjg59-chiark.mail.debian.vote DeleteThis @srcf.ucam.org


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On Tue, Feb 28, 2006 at 03:22:13PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote:
>On Tue, Feb 28, 2006 at 11:33:31AM -0800, Ted Walther wrote:
>> Good question. Maybe we should start up a debian-ubuntu mailing
>> list, and find out. Perhaps people with a gripe about Ubuntu should
>> write them up on http://wiki.debian.org/UbuntuGripe
>
>Have you been paying attention to any of the thousands of mails that
>have already been written on this subject? Ample data is already out
>there, if you would care to take a little time to analyze it.

If you think there is more information in those messages besides the
fact that Ubuntu isn't harming Debian, and Debian isn't harming Ubuntu,
then I hereby delegate you to summarize those mails, in your own words.
I'm ready to hear what you have to say.

Ted

--
It's not true unless it makes you laugh,
but you don't understand it until it makes you weep.

Eukleia: Ted Walther
Address: 5690 Pioneer Ave, Burnaby, BC V5H2X6 (Canada)
Contact: 604-430-4973


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Hi Ted,

I'm a little confused on your interpretation of "delegation". Consider
the following two examples in which you have appointed tasks to others:

1. In a thread from yesterday in which people were seeking out your
opinions, you appear to "delegate" someone else (who had not expressed
either interest or availability) to do the necessary background research
for you:

> If you think there is more information in those messages besides the
> fact that Ubuntu isn't harming Debian, and Debian isn't harming Ubuntu,
> then I hereby delegate you to summarize those mails, in your own words.
> I'm ready to hear what you have to say.

2. In your platform from the 2005 election, you appointed 12 people to
conduct in-depth research on gender issues and write a report within a
three-month deadline. Again none of these people had expressed interest
or availablility, and in fact it was made clear by at least some of them
that they were not interested in doing this research for you.

So:

My question is, how do you distinguish "delegate" from "command" (or its
lesser cousin "request politely")? If you were DPL and you delegated
tasks in this fashion, would you expect them to be done as a matter of
course?

(I realise example #2 was taken from your 2005 platform, but if your
stance on delegation has changed since then, I'd also be interested to
hear how).

Ben.


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On Wed, Mar 01, 2006 at 12:52:56PM +1100, Ben Burton wrote:
>My question is, how do you distinguish "delegate" from "command" (or its
>lesser cousin "request politely")? If you were DPL and you delegated
>tasks in this fashion, would you expect them to be done as a matter of
>course?

Every delegate has free personal choice. If they choose not to accept
their delegation, then the task will go undone, unless someone else
steps up to the plate.

The different between delegation and a polite request is that if you
choose to accept the delegation, you then have official, public sanction
for your acts. A polite request would be something personal, off the
record, as when Martin Michlmayer made some polite requests of me a
couple years ago.

Ted

--
It's not true unless it makes you laugh,
but you don't understand it until it makes you weep.

Eukleia: Ted Walther
Address: 5690 Pioneer Ave, Burnaby, BC V5H2X6 (Canada)
Contact: 604-430-4973


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Hi Ted,

Thanks for your answers. Another question regarding delegation:

What sorts of tasks would you plan to delegate? Would you delegate
important decisions, or would you be more interested in delegating
gruntwork?

I ask because the two examples I posted before seems to be of the
gruntwork type (do time-consuming research and fact-finding, and then
present the results to you as a summary or report). Perhaps these
examples are not representative of your leadership style, but they
happen to be the ones that I have noticed.

Thanks - Ben.


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On Wed, Mar 01, 2006 at 02:22:21PM +1100, Ben Burton wrote:
>What sorts of tasks would you plan to delegate? Would you delegate
>important decisions, or would you be more interested in delegating
>gruntwork?

Until I am DPL, I won't have any idea of the types of things that might
need to be delegated. But if you feel I've delegated you to do grunt
work, you are free to decline it. After all, we're here to have fun.

>I ask because the two examples I posted before seems to be of the
>gruntwork type (do time-consuming research and fact-finding, and then
>present the results to you as a summary or report).

Fact finding and research can seem like grunt-work, but they are also a
good way of making sure your thoughts are heard, and heard in a
favorable light. I think the two balance each other out.

I don't delegate people to do things they haven't already expressed
interest in.

Ted

--
It's not true unless it makes you laugh,
but you don't understand it until it makes you weep.

Eukleia: Ted Walther
Address: 5690 Pioneer Ave, Burnaby, BC V5H2X6 (Canada)
Contact: 604-430-4973


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On Tue, Feb 28, 2006 at 09:12:20PM +0000, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> Bill Allombert <allomber.TakeThisOut@math.u-bordeaux.fr> wrote:
>
> > As I understand, this aspect is completly lost in Ubuntu. Most major
> > design decisions in Ubuntu are made by developers working for Canonical,
> > not volunteers.
>
> This is entirely untrue. I've made a large number of design decisions in
> Ubuntu, and am not a Canonical employee. The specifications that guide
> most aspects of the OS design are written in collaboration between
> Canonical staff and other developers, even though responsibility for
> implementing those specifications often falls to staff.
> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+specs has the list of current
> specifications.

Thanks a lot for your correction and the information you provided.
I started to be imprecise and finished by being completly wrong. Oh
well...

Cheers,
--
Bill. <ballombe.TakeThisOut@debian.org>

Imagine a large red swirl here.


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