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Next: grandfathering packages
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Since: Apr 22, 2007 Posts: 41
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon May 03, 2004 5:30 pm
Post subject: Short descriptions of GR proposals on ballot Archived from groups: linux>debian>vote (more info?)
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The ballot for the current proposals is shaping up to be rather
complicated. There are currently 5 proposals, plus at least one
in the making, plus "further discussion".
In the interest of reducing the risk of somebody voting for something
they did not intend to, simply out of confusion, I (meta)propose that
the actual voting part of the ballot should contain ultra-short
summaries of which option is which, rather than just "Option A:
Steve Langasek's proposal" and so forth.
This was discussed on IRC, and the project secretary agreed in
principle but added that in order to stay strictly neutral he does not
want to be involved in drafting the actual summaries. I therefore
volunteered to write a first draft and try to gather a consensus about
how the actual ballot should look.
The ideal outcome would be that we find a set of summaries such that
*each* proposer agrees that *all* the summaries are fair and neutral
descriptions of the proposals they apply to. If such a consensus
cannot be reached, we will probably have stick to using proposer's
names instead of descriptions on the ballot, and everybody will lose.
The following is my initial draft of a set of descriptions. It will
surprise me if everybody is immediately happy with it, but at least it
will give us a target to shoot at. I follow the enumeration of
proposals used on <http://www.debian.org/vote/2004/vote_004>.
[###] Choice A: Postpone changes until September 2004 [needs 3:1]
[###] Choice B: Postpone changes until Sarge releases [needs 3:1]
[###] Choice C: Add apology to Social Contract [needs 3:1]
[###] Choice D: Revert to old wording of SC [needs 3:1]
[###] Choice E: "Transition Guide" foundation document [needs 3:1]
[###] Choice X: Further discussion
The space for descriptions is rather limited - the vote-taking
software wants each choice to fit on one line, and if the lines get
longer than 72-73 characters, MUA's will begin to wrap them,
invalidating the vote being sent. This implies an absolute maximum
length of 45 characters for the short description.
There's a tradition of having "[3:1 majority needed]" on the ballot
lines, but in this case that would probably leave too little space to
differentiate easily between the proposals. Does anyone think that
"[needs 3:1]" is too terse?
Another option would be to omit the [3:1] markers from the ballot
lines entirely. It could be argued that it is more important to be
able to understand what one is voting, than knowing which options need
what kind of majority (at least I cannot imagine how anybody's
*ranking* of the proposals would be influenced by the kind of majority
each needs to pass).
Of course, it is still expected of developers that they read the
actual, full, text of each proposal before deciding how to rank them.
The short descriptions are a tool for remembering which proposal is
which while filling in and cross-checking one's ballot. This will, I
hope, be emphasised elsewhere in the calls-for-votes.
I solicit comments about the above from -vote in general, but I would
especially like to hear reactions from the proponent of each proposal.
--
Henning Makholm "The great secret, known to internists and
learned early in marriage by internists' wives, but
still hidden from the general public, is that most things get
better by themselves. Most things, in fact, are better by morning."
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Since: Nov 29, 2006 Posts: 152
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 3:40 am
Post subject: Re: Short descriptions of GR proposals on ballot [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Henning Makholm <henning.RemoveThis@makholm.net> writes:
> I solicit comments about the above from -vote in general, but I
> would especially like to hear reactions from the proponent of each
> proposal.
Given that most of the GR proposals are written to work around our
RM's conscience, it would be helpful to point out which proposals
actually achieve this goal.
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Since: Apr 22, 2007 Posts: 41
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 2:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Short descriptions of GR proposals on ballot [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Scripsit Duncan Findlay <duncf.DeleteThis@debian.org>
> On Mon, May 03, 2004 at 09:07:13PM +0100, Henning Makholm wrote:
> > [###] Choice A: Postpone changes until September 2004 [needs 3:1]
> > [###] Choice B: Postpone changes until Sarge releases [needs 3:1]
> > [###] Choice C: Add apology to Social Contract [needs 3:1]
> > [###] Choice D: Revert to old wording of SC [needs 3:1]
> > [###] Choice E: "Transition Guide" foundation document [needs 3:1]
> > [###] Choice X: Further discussion
> Is the "Choice A: " bit required? I suspect people won't be swayed by
> knowing which letter of the alphabet identifies their choice,
I *think* the vote-tallying software needs it. Every ballot since 2000
that I could find in the debian-devel-announce archives has had
similar bits on each line. (Actually the identifiers are usually
digits rather than letters; the letters here may eventually be
replaced by numbers).
In any case, I think there should be a simple unambigous link between
each ballot line and the actual text of the proposal being voted on.
The short descriptions alone won't do; if voters have to cross-refence
by eye to find the proposal headlined "postpone changes until mumble",
there's a risk that they'll get the wrong mumble.
> As far as the description for B goes, I'm satisfied.
OK. I'd be interested in your opinion on the other descriptions too.
I am trying to prevent not only
"Gah! My favorite proposal lost because its description
was misleading"
but also
"Gah! My favorite proposal lost because the description for the
winner distracted voter attention from its more sinister aspects".
If I can get each proposer's explicit opinion that neither of these
are going on, we will have some amount of protection against that kind
of flamewars afterwards.
--
Henning Makholm "Jeg mener, at der eksisterer et hemmeligt
selskab med forgreninger i hele verden, som
arbejder i det skjulte for at udsprede det rygte at
der eksisterer en verdensomspændende sammensværgelse."
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Since: Apr 22, 2007 Posts: 41
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 2:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Short descriptions of GR proposals on ballot [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Scripsit Florian Weimer <fw DeleteThis @deneb.enyo.de>
> Henning Makholm <henning DeleteThis @makholm.net> writes:
> > I solicit comments about the above from -vote in general, but I
> > would especially like to hear reactions from the proponent of each
> > proposal.
> Given that most of the GR proposals are written to work around our
> RM's conscience, it would be helpful to point out which proposals
> actually achieve this goal.
Yes in principle, but it would be wrong to try to do so if one is not
the RM. Unless we see a definite announcement from the RM saying
"this and this proposal will allow me to release sarge with
DFSG-nonfree <foo> in it, but that and that will not", I'm not going
to try to second-guess him on the ballot draft.
And *if* we see such an announcement, I'd expect the proposals that do
not achieve the goal to be either withdrawn or adjusted. Only if that
does not happen will there be any point in letting the ballot text
point out the problem. (Rumor has it that we'll have a further
proposal that explicitly resolves to do nothing and let Sarge be
delayed, but if so, it will be easy to make that clear in the short
description).
Furthermore, it's not entirely a binary issue. For example, a
reasonable answer in the case of the current proposal A might be: Yes,
this will fix the problem but only if other matters do not delay the
release of Sarge beyond September. It would be hard to come up with a
short encoding of such ifs and buts that would not confuse more than
they help. And just "rounding off" the answer to "yes" might be seen
as misleading.
I don't think there is any other option than for each DD to read the
detailed proposals and think through their consequences (or lack of
same) before making up his mind.
--
Henning Makholm "Punctuation, is? fun!"
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Since: Apr 22, 2007 Posts: 41
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 10:50 am
Post subject: Re: Short descriptions of GR proposals on ballot [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Scripsit Duncan Findlay <duncf.TakeThisOut@debian.org>
> On Tue, May 04, 2004 at 05:57:34PM +0100, Henning Makholm wrote:
> > (Rumor has it that we'll have a further proposal that explicitly
> > resolves to do nothing and let Sarge be delayed, but if so, it will
> > be easy to make that clear in the short description).
> Don't we already have that in the form of "Choice X: Further
> Discussion"?
That was my initial reaction too, but it is true only at the most
mechanical level. If "further discussion" wins, it could mean either
of
1. The majority of developers do not think there's a problem that
needs fixing.
2. A majority of developers want to fix the problem, but the
majority is not large enough.
3. A 3:1 supermajority want to fix the problem in some way or
another, but they disagree internally about which of the
proposals is a good fix.
Our voting mechanism does not allow us to distinguish reliably betwen
(1) and (2)/(3). Therefore "further discussion" will equal a continued
flamewar. Andrew Suffield's proposal will let the matter be settled
conclusively if (1) turns out to be the case.
--
Henning Makholm "What the hedgehog sang is not evidence."
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Since: Sep 17, 2005 Posts: 303
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 11:10 am
Post subject: Re: Short descriptions of GR proposals on ballot [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 02:20:01PM +0100, Henning Makholm wrote:
> That was my initial reaction too, but it is true only at the most
> mechanical level. If "further discussion" wins, it could mean either
> of
....
> 3. A 3:1 supermajority want to fix the problem in some way or
> another, but they disagree internally about which of the
> proposals is a good fix.
They must not just disagree about which proposals are good, but for each
proposal there's another significant group who think that that proposal
would actively harm debian.
Maybe that's obvious, but it still might be worth repeating.
--
Raul
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Since: Apr 22, 2007 Posts: 41
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 10:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Short descriptions of GR proposals on ballot [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Scripsit Raul Miller <moth.RemoveThis@debian.org>
> On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 02:20:01PM +0100, Henning Makholm wrote:
> > 3. A 3:1 supermajority want to fix the problem in some way or
> > another, but they disagree internally about which of the
> > proposals is a good fix.
> They must not just disagree about which proposals are good, but for each
> proposal there's another significant group who think that that proposal
> would actively harm debian.
Yes. In such a situation it is reasonable to continue discussing
- contrary to a situation where the majority actively prefers to
not change change the current situation.
--
Henning Makholm "... popping pussies into pies
Wouldn't do in my shop
just the thought of it's enough to make you sick
and I'm telling you them pussy cats is quick ..."
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