[Proposal] Updating the Social Contract

On Sat, Jan 10, 2004 at 11:27:14AM -0600, Steve Langasek wrote:
> Although I don't see anything wrong with your wording, I don't see what
> this amendment would actually get us if it succeeded. The wording still
> leaves open the question of whether "we have created [sections on
> our ftp site]" means "we must keep these sections on our ftp site". The
> wording change also does not seem to address any of the reasons users
> currently perceive non-free as part of Debian.

Noted. Sven raised much the same issue.

At this point, I'm aware of three flaws in this proposal:

[1] It doesn't even suggest a migration towards more free software.

[2] It doesn't mention LSB, which it probably should.

[3] I didn't sign the proposal.

I'm going to wait a day or so to see if anyone else indicates any
other flaws. If no one else has written up a better proposal by
then, I'll update the one I submitted.

Thanks,

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On Sat, Jan 10, 2004 at 11:27:14AM -0600, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 10, 2004 at 10:26:23AM -0500, Raul Miller wrote:
> > This is based on my current understanding of the issues behind the
> > current discussion about non-free.
>
> > I propose we amend section 5 of the social contract so that it reads:
>
> > 5. Programs That Don't Meet Our Free-Software Standards
>
> > We acknowledge that some of our users require the use of programs
> > that don't conform to the Debian Free Software Guidelines. We
> > have created "contrib" and "non-free" areas in our FTP archive for
> > software which satisfies our Free Redistribution guideline but not
> > all our other guidelines. The software in these directories is an
> > optional supplement to the Debian OS which is available from the
> > "main" are of our FTP archive. Thus, although non-free software
> > isn't the point of Debian, we support its use, and we provide
> > infrastructure (such as our bug-tracking system and mailing lists)
> > for non-free software packages.
>
> > If you think this is a bad idea, please explain what you see that need
> > to be solved, and suggest how to make it better.
>
> Although I don't see anything wrong with your wording, I don't see what
> this amendment would actually get us if it succeeded. The wording still
> leaves open the question of whether "we have created [sections on
> our ftp site]" means "we must keep these sections on our ftp site". The
> wording change also does not seem to address any of the reasons users
> currently perceive non-free as part of Debian.

This is exactly why we have to decide what we want to do, and then
modify the social contract accordyingly.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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On 2004-01-10 15:26:23 +0000 Raul Miller <moth.RemoveThis@debian.org> wrote:

> 5. Programs That Don't Meet Our Free-Software Standards
>
> We acknowledge that some of our users require the use of
> programs
> that don't conform to the Debian Free Software Guidelines. We
> have created "contrib" and "non-free" areas in our FTP archive
> for
> software which satisfies our Free Redistribution guideline but
> not
> all our other guidelines. The software in these directories is
> an
> optional supplement to the Debian OS which is available from the
> "main" are of our FTP archive. Thus, although non-free software
> isn't the point of Debian, we support its use, and we provide
> infrastructure (such as our bug-tracking system and mailing
> lists)
> for non-free software packages.
>
> If you think this is a bad idea, please explain what you see that need
> to be solved, and suggest how to make it better.

It would have been helpful to describe your changes. It is the same up
to "our FTP Archive for" and then you replaced the original text "this
software. The software in these directories is not part of the Debian
system, although it has been configured for use with Debian. We
encourage CD manufacturers to read the licenses of software packages
in these directories and determine if they can distribute that
software on their CDs. Thus, although non-free software isn't a part
of Debian," followed by the common ending "we support its use, and we
provide infrastructure (such as our bug-tracking system and mailing
lists) for non-free software packages."

Are DFSG 7 and 9 also required for entry into non-free? Also, I think
contrib actually should fulfil all DFSG, but depends on software that
doesn't. Your rewrite appears to weaken that, which I'm sure you
didn't mean to do.

I oppose this proposal because it increases confusion about what is
part of the distribution and increases the conflict with the first
clause of the social contract.

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On Sat, Jan 10, 2004 at 10:26:23AM -0500, Raul Miller wrote:
> I propose we amend section 5 of the social contract so that it reads:
> [...]
> If you think this is a bad idea, please explain what you see that need
> to be solved, and suggest how to make it better.

If we're amending the social contract and keeping non-free, I think we should
amend:

1. Debian Will Remain 100% Free Software

We promise to keep the Debian GNU/Linux Distribution entirely free
software.

so that we can avoid having to claim that

http://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/non-free

isn't part of "Debian".

Cheers,
aj

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On Sun, Jan 11, 2004 at 01:05:00PM +0000, MJ Ray wrote:
> It would have been helpful to describe your changes.

Ok.

> Are DFSG 7 and 9 also required for entry into non-free?

Good point.

> I oppose this proposal because it increases confusion about what is
> part of the distribution and increases the conflict with the first
> clause of the social contract.

So do I. I think I can do better, but I'm still working on it.

Thanks,

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On Sun, Jan 11, 2004 at 11:57:49PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> If we're amending the social contract and keeping non-free, I think we should
> amend:
>
> 1. Debian Will Remain 100% Free Software
>
> We promise to keep the Debian GNU/Linux Distribution entirely free
> software.

Good point.

My interpretation here is that "100% Free" refers to "satisfying all
our guidelines" rather than "everything we do". Otherwise, we'd have to
get rid of debian private, and any other form of privacy [for example,
in the context of security], which I don't think most of us want.

However, I think this change would require an explicit statement about
how extremely important that free software is.

Thanks,

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* Anthony Towns

| 1. Debian Will Remain 100% Free Software
|
| We promise to keep the Debian GNU/Linux Distribution entirely free
| software.
|
| so that we can avoid having to claim that

What about the Hurd and the BSDs?

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* Anthony Towns
>
> | 1. Debian Will Remain 100% Free Software
> |
> | We promise to keep the Debian GNU/Linux Distribution entirely free
> | software.
> |
> | so that we can avoid having to claim that

On Sun, Jan 11, 2004 at 09:04:16PM +0100, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
> What about the Hurd and the BSDs?

My proposal fixes that one, but I forgot to fix the title of
the social contract.

If I amend my proposal to also update the title of the social contract,
would you like to second it? If not, what else would need to be changed?

Thanks,

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

This proposal replaces the amendment I submitted earlier today. This
version removes "Linux" from the title and spells out who the contract
is with. I also fix the grammatical mistake Sven found.


We will change the title of the social contract to read:

Debian's Social Contract with its Users

We will change parts 1 and 5 of the social contract to read as follows:

1. Debian Will Remain 100% Free Software

Debian exists to distribute a general purpose system composed of
entirely free software. As there are many definitions of free
software, we use the "Debian Free Software Guidelines" to determine
if software is free. We will also support our users who develop
and run other software on Debian -- free or non-free -- but we will
never make the system depend on an item of non-free software.

and

5. Programs That Don't Meet Our Free-Software Standards

We acknowledge that some of our users require the use of programs
that don't conform to the Debian Free Software Guidelines. We
support interoperability standards such as "Linux System Base", and
will accept bug reports where our system violates those standards.
To make our system more attractive to people with mild dependencies
on non-free software, we have created "contrib" and "non-free" areas
in our internet archive. The software in these directories is not
needed by most people, and we do not guarantee all software in the
non-free area may be distributed in other ways. Thus, although
we're working to reduce people's dependence on non-free software,
we support users who are still dependent. Additionally, we will
work to provide free alternatives to non-free software so people who
use only free software can work with users of non-free software.

- --
Raul

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

|This proposal replaces the amendment I submitted earlier today. This
|version removes "Linux" from the title and spells out who the contract
|is with. I also fix the grammatical mistake Sven found.
|
|
|We will change the title of the social contract to read:
|
| Debian's Social Contract with its Users
|
|We will change parts 1 and 5 of the social contract to read as follows:
|
| 1. Debian Will Remain 100% Free Software
|
| Debian exists to distribute a general purpose system composed of
| entirely free software. As there are many definitions of free
| software, we use the "Debian Free Software Guidelines" to determine
| if software is free. We will also support our users who develop
| and run other software on Debian -- free or non-free -- but we will
| never make the system depend on an item of non-free software.
|
|and
|
| 5. Programs That Don't Meet Our Free-Software Standards
|
| We acknowledge that some of our users require the use of programs
| that don't conform to the Debian Free Software Guidelines. We
| support interoperability standards such as "Linux System Base", and
| will accept bug reports where our system violates those standards.
| To make our system more attractive to people with mild dependencies
| on non-free software, we have created "contrib" and "non-free" areas
| in our internet archive. The software in these directories is not
| needed by most people, and we do not guarantee all software in the
| non-free area may be distributed in other ways. Thus, although
| we're working to reduce people's dependence on non-free software,
| we support users who are still dependent. Additionally, we will
| work to provide free alternatives to non-free software so people who
| use only free software can work with users of non-free software.
|

I second this proposal.

That said clarification of the last sentence would be nice, but maybe it can
go in some rationale or something.

Friendly,

Sven Luther
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On Jan 11, 2004, at 18:06, Raul Miller wrote:

> Debian's Social Contract with its Users

Our social contract seems to be with both our users and the free
software community; see 4.


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> On Jan 11, 2004, at 18:06, Raul Miller wrote:
>
> > Debian's Social Contract with its Users

On Mon, Jan 12, 2004 at 11:45:46AM -0500, Anthony DeRobertis wrote:
> Our social contract seems to be with both our users and the free
> software community; see 4.

I agree.

In fact, I've removed "with its Users" from the proposal I submitted
this morning.

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On Mon, Jan 12, 2004 at 10:22:08AM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:
> | We acknowledge that some of our users require the use of programs
> | that don't conform to the Debian Free Software Guidelines. We
> | support interoperability standards such as "Linux System Base", and
> | will accept bug reports where our system violates those standards.
> = To make our system more attractive to people with mild dependencies
> = on non-free software, we have created "contrib" and "non-free" areas
> = in our internet archive. The software in these directories is not
> = needed by most people, and we do not guarantee all software in the
> = non-free area may be distributed in other ways. Thus, although
> = we're working to reduce people's dependence on non-free software,
> = we support users who are still dependent. Additionally, we will
> | work to provide free alternatives to non-free software so people who
> | use only free software can work with users of non-free software.
> |
>
> I second this proposal.
>
> That said clarification of the last sentence would be nice, but maybe it can
> go in some rationale or something.

I'm planning on following Andrew M.A. Cater's suggestion, and will be
extracting the content of the lines marked above with = as a part of
the rationale for the proposal. [Those lines won't go into the social
contract except for the last two words of the last "=" line.]

Are you ok with that?

Is there any additional clarification you would expect?

Thanks,

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