Move from KDE4.2 to xfce or fluxbox - why not?

On Sep 30, 1:52 am, "Aaron W. Hsu" <arcf... RemoveThis @sacrideo.us> wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 23:58:43 -0400, Occam <oc... RemoveThis @internode.razoron.net>  
> wrote:
>
> > Just like many others, I have problems with KDE4.2 - it crashes far too  
> > often.
> > So I tried a bit of xfce, fluxbox and some other desktops, and found  
> > that I
> > could even use Kontact in eg xfce.  Now my questions is: why bother with  
> > KDE4.2?
>
> KDE is a suite of programs just like most Desktop Environments. You don't  
> have to run all the programs to use just one of them. KDE does have some  
> nice features. I haven't tried XFCE or any of the others recently (I used  
> CWM on OpenBSD), so I wouldn't know how they compare. Some things I use in  
> KDE on a regular basis:
>
> 1) Auto recognition of mountable devices
> 2) Time keeper for tracking hours worked.
> 3) GPG Gui tools.
> 4) File Manager
> 5) Okular
> 6) The Organizer
> 7) Amarok
> And the System settings.
> 9) Terminal
>
> Of course, I use the KDE shell to good effect. I have the file indexing  
> disabled, as it consumes too much memory for me. I use Opera as my  
> Internet Suite and Acme as my Text Editor, so KDE doesn't come into play  
> there. I use SCIM and Wicd. The power management seems to work well, and  
> the GUI management tools are nice. I haven't had an use for the Desktop  
> Widgets yet, but I have used such things in the past, so who knows?
>
> > Just what _does_ one miss out on (more than eye candy) by using one of  
> > the other
> > desktops?
>
> Don't underrate eye candy. Sometimes I really do want eye candy.
>
> > I should add that I do not dislike KDE4 - KDE4.3 runs quite well, thank  
> > you very
> > much; but that is not part of Slackware yet.
>
> If you like KDE, you might want to actually figure out what is causing the  
> crashes. If you can isolate and eliminate the single cause of these  
> frequent crashes, there is no reason to move to a whole different  
> environment which you may not like. For me, the source of trouble was the  
> file indexing. Maybe that's your problem too, but maybe not.
>
> All in all, most of the complaints I see against KDE are unjustified rants  
> or simply demonstrate a strong level of ignorance about how a Desktop  
> system is composed on Linux. I must admit to some shock in this regard,  
> because this is Slackware, people are supposed to at least gain a somewhat  
> intuitive sense of what is happening with the computer, even if they don't  
> have to bother with the underpinnings all the time.
>
>         Aaron W. Hsu
>


I found KDE 4 slow to load and clumsy to use. I much prefer the KDE 3
interface. The "classic" option still does not solve the functional
problems.

However I found that most meaningful KDE apps run on XFCE, no
problem. And it is easier to put non-standard apps on the kicker bar
across the bottom. Now it can be argued that the new interface is just
dandy and my objections are those of an old fogey.
Granted. But if someone sold me a car with the accelerator on the left
and the brake on the right I would be equally as upset.
Nor would I want a keyboard with the Dvorak layout even though it is
theoretically more efficient.

I have not found any functionality on KDE 4 that I do not have on
xfce. The menu automatically picked up all the usual suspects.
So I see no reason for using the KDE4 layout. Not every change is an
improvement, e.g., Vista.

Qt 4 is another matter. Things that would not compile on Slack 12.2
are a breeze on Slack 13.

Interesting sidelight: on my Xubuntu partition, which also uses xfce,
the kicker bar is across the top instead of the bottom. I use Xubuntu
only for Inkscape 47. Inkscape 47 cannot be installed on Slack 13
with any reasonable amount of effort. If I move the missing libraries
over then some native Slack apps (e.g. Oklular) stop working. Yes I
know all about the slackbuild. Some marriages are just not made in
heaven.

I passed on ext4 also, mainly because my older slack partitions could
not use it. That seems to have been the right move.

John Culleton

John C.

On 2009-09-30, Aaron W. Hsu <arcfide RemoveThis @sacrideo.us> wrote:

> All in all, most of the complaints I see against KDE are unjustified rants
> or simply demonstrate a strong level of ignorance about how a Desktop
> system is composed on Linux. I must admit to some shock in this regard,
> because this is Slackware, people are supposed to at least gain a somewhat
> intuitive sense of what is happening with the computer, even if they don't
> have to bother with the underpinnings all the time.

Unjustified, my ass! KDE 4.2 is a disgrace.

To what purpose has KDE changed almost everything? What are the
benefits gained? I see not a single one. I've spent more time
googling for solutions for correcting the ludicrous changes now in KDE
reconfiguring it than I spend customizing Slackware. It's beyond
absurd.

I used to right click on the task bar to "add application". Now it's
such a bizarre and convoluted process, I don't even recall how I did
it. I'd have to google it again. They left out Quanta and added
stuff most users are clueless about, some possible security problems.
Default color schemes make one wonder just who is minding the store
over at KDE. Are they're inentionally configuring konsole to
discourage the use of the CLI?

I'd appreciate your explaining how file indexing slows down KDE and
how you disabled it. I certainly don't know and am a bit pissed I
even need to. One of my main reasons for my abandoning KDE is the
blatant speed hit from using it. I can plainly see how much slower
the cursor moves across the screen when using apps like slrn or emacs
in konsole. It is not insignificant.

There can be no doubt KDE has some very good programs. I live in
konsole and consider k3b brilliant. The desktop, OTOH, is quite
another thing. I'll definitely be looking for app replacements if I
have to suffer that trainwreck.

nb

On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 21:21:07 GMT, notbob wrote:
>
> Unjustified, my ass! KDE 4.2 is a disgrace.

KDE 4.3.1 is much better. Almost as good as kde 3.5.
That assumes you have a 2GHz cpu.


> I'd appreciate your explaining how file indexing slows down KDE and
> how you disabled it.

I get into the kde control center under Advanced User Settings ->
Service Manager and proceed to disable just about everything.

Under kde 4.3.1, we now have 2 "search Features/services" I disabled
both Desktop Search and Akonadi.

On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:21:07 -0400, notbob <notbob.DeleteThis@nothome.com> wrote:

> To what purpose has KDE changed almost everything? What are the
> benefits gained? I see not a single one. I've spent more time
> googling for solutions for correcting the ludicrous changes now in KDE
> reconfiguring it than I spend customizing Slackware. It's beyond
> absurd.

Perhaps, but how is this a complaint that KDE is in some important
technical sense, flawed? You could argue that the new system is
fundamentally less efficient, but I don't think you can, since the new
system is more efficient in cases, and also tracks better with current
Desktop practices on other systems. Whether you consider this a good thing
or something that you like is up to you, but it doesn't mean that KDE is
somehow bad.

Backwards compatibility is nice, but jumping from verison 3.5 to 4.2
shouldn't result in surprise when you discover that things are different.
Again, it also doesn't really affect what I consider to be viable and
addressable merits in Desktop environments. I don't think people want a
Desktop that never changes. If that's what you want, you can always use
TWM. 3.5 is still there, too, if you really can't learn a new workflow.

> I'd appreciate your explaining how file indexing slows down KDE and
> how you disabled it. I certainly don't know and am a bit pissed I
> even need to. One of my main reasons for my abandoning KDE is the
> blatant speed hit from using it. I can plainly see how much slower
> the cursor moves across the screen when using apps like slrn or emacs
> in konsole. It is not insignificant.

If you haven't dealt with the file indexing issue, then you're really
cutting KDE a little short. I think you could fault KDE for enabling the
Desktop indexing by default, but if the reason you didn't like KDE was the
speed, you really should give it another chance after disabling the
indexing. Basically, there are two desktop features provided in this. One
is a semantic componenet, which, in my experience, uses a bit more ram,
but doesn't really cut in on the speed of the system provided that you
have the ram to spare. The Desktop File Indexing (a.k.a. -- Akonadi or
whatever) on the other hand, is horribly broken in KDE 4.2, which is to
say that it is built on top of Java, consumes constant CPU cycles, uses at
least 400MB of ram on my system, and does not stop running, even when the
indexing is complete. In other words, the only thing that seems slow to me
in KDE is that thing. They know about the problem, and want to fix it, but
I don't know if they have finally done so or not.

So, try KDE again, but this time go into the Advanced Tab and select the
Desktop search icon. From there, uncheck the Desktop indexer, and you
should be alright. You may have to do a little restarting of components
and such to clean out any remnants.

> There can be no doubt KDE has some very good programs. I live in
> konsole and consider k3b brilliant. The desktop, OTOH, is quite
> another thing. I'll definitely be looking for app replacements if I
> have to suffer that trainwreck.

If speed was your only concern, then the indexer could very well have been
the problem. I have someone running KDE on a fairly middle range machine
(certainly not Dual Core top of the line), and it runs quite well. I can't
help you if you insist on sticking with the old KDE GUI paradigm, though,
which, for the record, was one of the reasons I didn't use it. I like the
new layout much better.

Aaron W. Hsu


--
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its
victims may be the most oppressive. -- C. S. Lewis

On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 01:52:28 -0400, "Aaron W. Hsu" <arcfide.RemoveThis@sacrideo.us> wrote:

>On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 23:58:43 -0400, Occam <occam.RemoveThis@internode.razoron.net>
>wrote:
>
>> Just like many others, I have problems with KDE4.2 - it crashes far too
>> often.
>> So I tried a bit of xfce, fluxbox and some other desktops, and found
>> that I
>> could even use Kontact in eg xfce. Now my questions is: why bother with
>> KDE4.2?
>
>KDE is a suite of programs just like most Desktop Environments. You don't
>have to run all the programs to use just one of them. KDE does have some
>nice features. I haven't tried XFCE or any of the others recently (I used
>CWM on OpenBSD), so I wouldn't know how they compare. Some things I use in
>KDE on a regular basis:
>
>1) Auto recognition of mountable devices
>2) Time keeper for tracking hours worked.
>3) GPG Gui tools.
>4) File Manager
>5) Okular
>6) The Organizer
>7) Amarok
> And the System settings.
>9) Terminal
>
>Of course, I use the KDE shell to good effect. I have the file indexing
>disabled, as it consumes too much memory for me. I use Opera as my
>Internet Suite and Acme as my Text Editor, so KDE doesn't come into play
>there. I use SCIM and Wicd. The power management seems to work well, and
>the GUI management tools are nice. I haven't had an use for the Desktop
>Widgets yet, but I have used such things in the past, so who knows?
>
>> Just what _does_ one miss out on (more than eye candy) by using one of
>> the other
>> desktops?
>
>Don't underrate eye candy. Sometimes I really do want eye candy.
>
>> I should add that I do not dislike KDE4 - KDE4.3 runs quite well, thank
>> you very
>> much; but that is not part of Slackware yet.
>
>If you like KDE, you might want to actually figure out what is causing the
>crashes. If you can isolate and eliminate the single cause of these
>frequent crashes, there is no reason to move to a whole different
>environment which you may not like. For me, the source of trouble was the
>file indexing. Maybe that's your problem too, but maybe not.

I _could_ look into the KDE4.2 problems - but NOT for my main 'working' system.
I use that as the 'has-to-work' distribution, and limit my experimentation to
other distros.

On the other hand, the problems with KDE4.2 seem to be solved in KDE4.3.1 - so
why bother? I will wait for Slackware 13.1 and keep using 12.2 until that time.

For relaxation, I will continue trying out xfce. Maybe that is a better way
forward.
====================================================
<remove my attribute to get my proper email address>

Responding to Bit Twister:

> On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 21:21:07 GMT, notbob wrote:
>>
>> Unjustified, my ass! KDE 4.2 is a disgrace.
>
> KDE 4.3.1 is much better. Almost as good as kde 3.5. That assumes you
> have a 2GHz cpu.
>
>
>> I'd appreciate your explaining how file indexing slows down KDE and how
>> you disabled it.
>
> I get into the kde control center under Advanced User Settings ->
> Service Manager and proceed to disable just about everything.
>
> Under kde 4.3.1, we now have 2 "search Features/services" I disabled
> both Desktop Search and Akonadi.


Wouldn't it have just been easier to use Xfce to start with?

My favorite is IceWM, and I consider Xfce to be a heavyweight tool, but
have it installed alongside IceWM it as it comes with Slack, has some
neat stuff, and "da wifey" likes it.

Tried KDE for giggles, had some, got bored with all the bling.

Tried Gnome. Lets not talk about that, ok? Best forgotten about.

Looking with interest at JWM. Any fans here?

--
*===( http://www.400monkeys.com/God/
*===( http://principiadiscordia.com/
*===( http://www.slackware.com/

On 2009-10-01, Mike Jones <Not.RemoveThis@Arizona.Bay> wrote:

> Wouldn't it have just been easier to use Xfce to start with?

I don't recall the exact slack/xfce rev, but I do remember it was a
major rev jump for xfce (4.2->4.4?). I had actually been using xfce
on the previous slack incarnation and liked it, but the the new uprev
of xfce was just like this current uprev of kde from 3.5->4.2. Too
many changes for nothing more than change's sake, the same game
Winblows and now kde have been playing. I couldn't find anything,
most of the menus having changed look and feel, but not really
function, forcing me to relearn what I'd already known. I hate that!

I don't say a wm should remain exactly the same forever, becoming
stagnant and even dowdy, but when it forces me to start upgrading
hardware for no particular gain or relearn what I already knew, I dig
in my heels. I'm not one to buy new hardware cuz it's bright, new,
and shiny. I don't buy a car to define my person. To me it's just a
tool and an old screwdriver works just as well as a new screwdriver,
provided I haven't screwed it up. I was happy with kde's past
improvements, but this time they've gone too far. To paraphrase an
old Tom Petty song, stop dragging my computer down.

nb

Responding to notbob:

> On 2009-10-01, Mike Jones <Not DeleteThis @Arizona.Bay> wrote:
>
>> Wouldn't it have just been easier to use Xfce to start with?
>
> I don't recall the exact slack/xfce rev, but I do remember it was a
> major rev jump for xfce (4.2->4.4?). I had actually been using xfce on
> the previous slack incarnation and liked it, but the the new uprev of
> xfce was just like this current uprev of kde from 3.5->4.2. Too many
> changes for nothing more than change's sake, the same game Winblows and
> now kde have been playing. I couldn't find anything, most of the menus
> having changed look and feel, but not really function, forcing me to
> relearn what I'd already known. I hate that!
>
> I don't say a wm should remain exactly the same forever, becoming
> stagnant and even dowdy, but when it forces me to start upgrading
> hardware for no particular gain or relearn what I already knew, I dig in
> my heels. I'm not one to buy new hardware cuz it's bright, new, and
> shiny. I don't buy a car to define my person. To me it's just a tool
> and an old screwdriver works just as well as a new screwdriver, provided
> I haven't screwed it up. I was happy with kde's past improvements, but
> this time they've gone too far. To paraphrase an old Tom Petty song,
> stop dragging my computer down.
>
> nb


I take your point, but I'm not sure I understand what your problem was
with Xfce? I've found it to be a steady and rational improvement through
its development. No dramatic changes, a few tweaks here and there, as
you'd expect when a better way of doing something is sorted out, but no
real upheavals.

Also, I've found Xfce to be seductively easy to flick around and get how
I want it on a fresh install. To me it just keeps getting better.

Mind you, there is no substitute for just dropping your backed up configs
into IceWM and it all just working (maybe with a quick live restart).

(Queue fans of other "sports model" WMs in 3... 2... 1...

--
*===( http://www.400monkeys.com/God/
*===( http://principiadiscordia.com/
*===( http://www.slackware.com/

Thu, 01 Oct 2009 17:15:33 +0000, Mike Jones did cat :

> Responding to notbob:
>
>> On 2009-10-01, Mike Jones <Not RemoveThis @Arizona.Bay> wrote:
>>
>>> Wouldn't it have just been easier to use Xfce to start with?
>>
>> I don't recall the exact slack/xfce rev, but I do remember it was a
>> major rev jump for xfce (4.2->4.4?). I had actually been using xfce on
....
>> improvements, but this time they've gone too far. To paraphrase an old
>> Tom Petty song, stop dragging my computer down.

arrr, feelin' Petty?-)

Well, notbob, that's "The Same Old You" in the same
"One Story Town", sure "You Got Lucky" but please
"Deliver Me" of a doubt:
so, you had a "Change of Heart"?
Anyway, "Finding Out" the best WM "We Stand A Chance"
as we choose "Between Two Worlds" to have a blink of a better
life, coming out "Straight Into Darkness"
the poor sheep will as ever run "A Wasted Life".

(Tom may forgive me ,-)

>> nb
>
>
> I take your point, but I'm not sure I understand what your problem was
> with Xfce? I've found it to be a steady and rational improvement through
> its development. No dramatic changes, a few tweaks here and there, as
> you'd expect when a better way of doing something is sorted out, but no
> real upheavals.
>
> Also, I've found Xfce to be seductively easy to flick around and get how
> I want it on a fresh install.

That's right and one reason why I recommend it to folks that want to
get the stuff done and not play around or strut and elbow ,-)
To the other ones, including myself and me, I use and recommend
fluXbox it is as funny to configure as Evolution and much easier
to get working as well as faster and slicker ;-> (trollmeter just
bumped from .3 to .90276)

> To me it just keeps getting better.
>
> Mind you, there is no substitute for just dropping your backed up
> configs into IceWM

that's because of that green kryptonite in your pocket
or did you forgot to use ice-9 ?

> and it all just working (maybe with a quick live
> restart).

that's one of the best ways to act for a WM, "just work", any
other facot would imply chairs, keyboards and their soft skinned
interface.

>
> (Queue fans of other "sports model" WMs in 3... 2... 1...

mmmh... "gimme an F, gimme an L gimme a U and an X"-etc.-)

(though I reckon I also use ratpoison when my carpal
syndrome gets too hard for surmise)

On 2009-10-01, Loki Harfagr <l0k1 DeleteThis @thedarkdesign.free.fr.INVALID> wrote:

> Well, notbob, that's "The Same Old You" in the same
> "One Story Town", sure "You Got Lucky" but please
> "Deliver Me" of a doubt:
> so, you had a "Change of Heart"?
> Anyway, "Finding Out" the best WM "We Stand A Chance"
> as we choose "Between Two Worlds" to have a blink of a better
> life, coming out "Straight Into Darkness"
> the poor sheep will as ever run "A Wasted Life".
>
> (Tom may forgive me ,-)

I've said it once and I'll say it again:

Loki ....yer weird!

Loki Harfagr wrote:
> Thu, 01 Oct 2009 17:15:33 +0000, Mike Jones did cat :
>
>> Responding to notbob:
>>
>>> On 2009-10-01, Mike Jones <Not.TakeThisOut@Arizona.Bay> wrote:

>
>> (Queue fans of other "sports model" WMs in 3... 2... 1...
>
> mmmh... "gimme an F, gimme an L gimme a U and an X"-etc.-)
>

Any thoughts on Afterstep? I know it's (very) old and probably has not
been updated for a while but I quite like it, actually more than
windowmaker.

Any major drawbacks to this, known security holes or similar? I used it
with some wm applets and some gnome stuff for mounting volumes a while
ago and it worked pretty well. Basically, a pop up app-menu is all you
need in my opinion.

Thanks,

barnabyh

On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 14:11:39 -0400, notbob <notbob.RemoveThis@nothome.com> wrote:

> it
> changed icons, menus, and function locations within menus. IOW, just
> a cosmetic thing

But this *is* the main reason that an environment shell like KDE or XFCE
exists. Relocating and changing the menus and functionality of the various
widgets in the system to optimize or improve the workflow is a good move.
For example, (since you seem to want one), comparing the classic menu to
the Kickoff menu on KDE, the Kickoff menu has the nice search bar at the
top, which I like, it also has easier navigation, and my favorite programs
are easily accessible without going down a menu (it's also easier to add
them specially). This is an improvement over wasted quicklaunch icon space.

The automount widget for mounting hard drives and the like is very nice in
KDE 4, and not at all useful in the old KDE that I remember (it was a long
time ago, though, so maybe KDE 3.5 has something equally useful).

Changing such things to improve the workflow is an important contribution
to Desktop world. Sometimes they get it wrong, sometimes they get it right.

Aaron W. Hsu

--
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its
victims may be the most oppressive. -- C. S. Lewis

On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 18:42:55 +0000, notbob wrote:

> On 2009-10-01, Loki Harfagr <l0k1 DeleteThis @thedarkdesign.free.fr.INVALID> wrote:
>
>> Well, notbob, that's "The Same Old You" in the same
>> "One Story Town", sure "You Got Lucky" but please "Deliver Me" of a
>> doubt:
>> so, you had a "Change of Heart"?
>> Anyway, "Finding Out" the best WM "We Stand A Chance"
>> as we choose "Between Two Worlds" to have a blink of a better life,
>> coming out "Straight Into Darkness" the poor sheep will as ever run "A
>> Wasted Life".
>>
>> (Tom may forgive me ,-)
>
> I've said it once and I'll say it again:
>
> Loki ....yer weird!

I bet he's fun to party with, though.


--
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
"Bother!" said Pooh, as he garotted another passing Liberal.
Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/