DAT drive failing?

> When a tape drive goes out or gets dirty, the error messages
> are complete non-sense. I used Ecrix VXA drives in the
> past but have dumped them for removable SATA hard drives.
> I got all these same weird errors when my tape drives
> went out. One bad (SCSI) tape drive even halted the system
> from booting:
>
> http://www.cru-dataport.com/products/DataPort-25.php
> http://www.seagate.com/ww/v/index.jsp?locale=en-US&name=st9320421as-mo...tus-720
>
> They are 10 times as fast. And, it is so much easier to
> extract a file, it is not funny.

Todd, thanks very much for the tip. I've been wondering what the next step is
in backup technology-- the tape drive has been reliable until now, but the 20 GB
limit isn't going to work for me for too much longer. Not to mention that I
maintain a SCSI controller just for that purpose-- sunk cost now, but when I
started to look at buying a new drive, they start at $450 or so, just for the
same drive I have now. DAT-4 just doesn't seem to make sense any more.

I'll start to look into removeable SATA and keep your tips in mind.

Thanks,
Andrew.

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> http://www.cru-dataport.com/products/DataPort-25.php
> http://www.seagate.com/ww/v/index.jsp?locale=en-US&name=st9320421as-mo...tus-720

OK, removable SATA is new to me, so I want to be sure I understand this. I see
quite a few removable SATA enclosures on Newegg, e.g.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817994071 for just $25--
pretty cheap.

So the idea is that any of these, in principle, can accept an ordinary SATA
drive? Any constraints on the type of drive? Do you have good or bad
experience with particular enclosures or drives, beyond the ones you cited
above?

> But, before you go doing this, *BOTH* your BIOS
> and your kernel *MUST* be set to AHCI. And when I say
> "*MUST*" I really, really, really mean it!
>
> Once you have your BIOS and your kernel set up correctly,
> removable SATA drives will act exactly the same way a
> USB flash drive acts when you insert and remove them.
>
> If not set up correcting, your kernel will freeze when you
> try eject them (takes about 30 seconds).
>
> Tip: remove and replace your BIOS chip to update the AHCI
> driver. Do not flash it! The $30.00 or so is worth not having
> two weeks of downtime waiting for a new module from your
> motherboard's manufacture (don't ask how I learned that lesson!)

OK, I'm not familiar with AHCI, but I see the kernel config option.

Never replaced a BIOS chip. Easy to find for my 3-4 year old mobo, and easy to
swap out? Where do I find it-- from the mobo manufacturer?

Thanks,
Andrew.

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Andrew Schulman wrote:
>> http://www.cru-dataport.com/products/DataPort-25.php
>> http://www.seagate.com/ww/v/index.jsp?locale=en-US&name=st9320421as-mo...tus-720
>
> OK, removable SATA is new to me, so I want to be sure I understand this. I see
> quite a few removable SATA enclosures on Newegg, e.g.
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817994071 for just $25--
> pretty cheap.
>
> So the idea is that any of these, in principle, can accept an ordinary SATA
> drive? Any constraints on the type of drive? Do you have good or bad
> experience with particular enclosures or drives, beyond the ones you cited
> above?

Stay away from the cheap enclosures. The CRU one I cite has
an interconnect rating of 25,000 insertions. The cheap ones are meant
for home users who seldom remove them. Depending on my
customer, I will have anywhere between five and twelve drives
in rotation.

A SATA drive in one of these carriages is functionally the
same as an external eSata drive.

Here is a good write up on eSata:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esata#External_SATA

In the laptop size hard drives I prefer the Seagate models
I cited you with their "G Force" option. Means they can be
slapped around more.

ON the 5-1/4 drives, I prefer the Seagate "Enterprise"
(ES) model drives, as they are meant for 24-7 operation in
a server. From their data sheet: 24x7 operation and
1.2 M hrs. MTBF.

http://www.seagate.com/www/en-us/products/servers/barracuda_es/

CRU has carriages from them too. If you supplier has trouble
finding CRU products, tell them D & H Distributing carries them.

Note: customers like the smaller size of the laptop
carriages.


>
>> But, before you go doing this, *BOTH* your BIOS
>> and your kernel *MUST* be set to AHCI. And when I say
>> "*MUST*" I really, really, really mean it!
>>
>> Once you have your BIOS and your kernel set up correctly,
>> removable SATA drives will act exactly the same way a
>> USB flash drive acts when you insert and remove them.
>>
>> If not set up correcting, your kernel will freeze when you
>> try eject them (takes about 30 seconds).
>>
>> Tip: remove and replace your BIOS chip to update the AHCI
>> driver. Do not flash it! The $30.00 or so is worth not having
>> two weeks of downtime waiting for a new module from your
>> motherboard's manufacture (don't ask how I learned that lesson!)
>
> OK, I'm not familiar with AHCI, but I see the kernel config option.

Here is a good article on AHCI:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Host_Controller_Interface

Under Red Hat/CentOS, you can tell what you are using with:

$ cat /etc/modprobe.conf | grep -i scsi
alias scsi_hostadapter sata_sil
alias scsi_hostadapter1 megaraid_mbox
#alias scsi_hostadapter2 ata_piix
alias scsi_hostadapter2 ahci
#alias scsi_hostadapter3 ata_piix

"ata_piix" is the wrong one (commented out); "ahci" is the correct
one.

You must get AHCI properly configured before using
removable SATA drives.

>
> Never replaced a BIOS chip. Easy to find for my 3-4
> year old mobo, and easy to
> swap out? Where do I find it-- from the mobo manufacturer?

I use Supermicro motherboards. You just call up the parts
department at Supermicro and they make you one up. Use
a bent, large paper clip to extra the old one. Make sure
everything is unplugged and discharged and that you are
statically grounded.

Another tip on removable storage: have your backup routine write
all over the drive (keep old archives around and age them out),
so you are not writing in the same spot all the time.

HTH,
-T

> A SATA drive in one of these carriages is functionally the
> same as an external eSata drive.
>
> Here is a good write up on eSata:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esata#External_SATA
>
> In the laptop size hard drives I prefer the Seagate models
> I cited you with their "G Force" option. Means they can be
> slapped around more.
>
> ON the 5-1/4 drives, I prefer the Seagate "Enterprise"
> (ES) model drives, as they are meant for 24-7 operation in
> a server. From their data sheet: 24x7 operation and
> 1.2 M hrs. MTBF.
>
> http://www.seagate.com/www/en-us/products/servers/barracuda_es/
>
> CRU has carriages from them too. If you supplier has trouble
> finding CRU products, tell them D & H Distributing carries them.
>
> Note: customers like the smaller size of the laptop
> carriages.

Thanks, this is all good. So to rotate, let's say, 6 drives for backup, I would
buy one frame and 6 carriages, correct? Or maybe just 3 carriages, since each
holds 2 drives.

> >> But, before you go doing this, *BOTH* your BIOS
> >> and your kernel *MUST* be set to AHCI. And when I say
> >> "*MUST*" I really, really, really mean it!

Updating my 4-year-old mobo
(http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=1770&page=1) to an
AHCI-compliant BIOS is the part that seems to me to be least likely to work.
Certainly MSI won't be providing any more updates. Possible to drop in another
BIOS? Seems doubtful. At some point I'll get a new mobo, but for now it's
running fine and I'm not ready to retire it.

Given that, how would an eSATA option compare? Say I add an eSATA controller
(could take the place of my SCSI controller that I won't be needing any more),
and rotate external eSATA drives. What do you think? Would it work as well?

Or USB? I know, quality, speed. What else? This is a home LAN that I'm
backing up. Hardware quality and cost are both important. Speed isn't (after
all I've been using tapes all these years.)

> Another tip on removable storage: have your backup routine write
> all over the drive (keep old archives around and age them out),
> so you are not writing in the same spot all the time.

Thanks, good idea.
Andrew.

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> Updating my 4-year-old mobo
> (http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=1770&page=1) to an
> AHCI-compliant BIOS is the part that seems to me to be least likely to work.

Reading around on the net, it seems that the nForce4 chipset in my MSI Neo4 K8N
Platinum doesn't support AHCI for SATA.

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Andrew Schulman wrote:

> Thanks, this is all good. So to rotate, let's say, 6 drives for backup, I would
> buy one frame and 6 carriages, correct? Or maybe just 3 carriages, since each
> holds 2 drives.

I only put one drive per carrage, even though it can carry two.
I support if my backups ever need two drives, them I would
put a second drive in the carrage.

The empty frames are harder to get, so what I would do
for six drive is buy one full kit and five frames

> Updating my 4-year-old mobo
> (http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=1770&page=1) to an
> AHCI-compliant BIOS is the part that seems to me to be least likely to work.
> Certainly MSI won't be providing any more updates. Possible to drop in another
> BIOS? Seems doubtful. At some point I'll get a new mobo, but for now it's
> running fine and I'm not ready to retire it.
>
> Given that, how would an eSATA option compare? Say I add an eSATA controller
> (could take the place of my SCSI controller that I won't be needing any more),
> and rotate external eSATA drives. What do you think? Would it work as well?

Haven't found an AHCI compliant add on. Does not mean they are
not out there. SIIG cards are not ACHI cards.

> Or USB? I know, quality, speed. What else? This is a home LAN that I'm
> backing up. Hardware quality and cost are both important. Speed isn't (after
> all I've been using tapes all these years.)

Or USB, if you like. They are a whole lot slower, but it would
solve the ACHI problem.

Idea: call your mobo's tech support and ask them about ACHI.

-T

Andrew Schulman wrote:
>> Updating my 4-year-old mobo
>> (http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=1770&page=1) to an
>> AHCI-compliant BIOS is the part that seems to me to be least likely to work.
>
> Reading around on the net, it seems that the nForce4 chipset in my MSI Neo4 K8N
> Platinum doesn't support AHCI for SATA.

Oh poop!

> Haven't found an AHCI compliant add on. Does not mean they are
> not out there. SIIG cards are not ACHI cards.

People report a lot of problems with AHCI in both Windows and Linux. See
e.g. http://techreport.com/articles.x/13832/5 (high CPU utilization rate in
AHCI mode) and http://techreport.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=64245 . I
take it from your recommendation that you haven't had that problem?

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Andrew Schulman wrote:
>> Haven't found an AHCI compliant add on. Does not mean they are
>> not out there. SIIG cards are not ACHI cards.
>
> People report a lot of problems with AHCI in both Windows and Linux. See
> e.g. http://techreport.com/articles.x/13832/5 (high CPU utilization rate in
> AHCI mode) and http://techreport.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=64245 . I
> take it from your recommendation that you haven't had that problem?

Until I got the BOIS and the drivers correct, I took an accounting
firm down right in the middle of tax season.

After that, all was happy camping.

Anyway, when you said you had a DAT drive, I presumed you were
running a business server. In your case, with no Intel ICH9/10
chipset (AHCI), a USB drive will work fine.

Also, Firewire works so, so much more reliably than USB it
is not funny. But, since your boot disk in rescue mode
will not support Firewire, meaning you can not do a restore
from your rescue disk, you are stuck with USB.

-T